Help Needed Regarding the State of the Dead
I’ve been listening to your FAF Podcasts on YouTube over and over again; there is so much to learn and be grateful for there. My Adventist father and I have been talking on the phone, and he is showing some curiosities towards my points of view on the gospel, the ‘law’ (10 commandments for him—LOL), and seems like we may be discussing the state of the dead soon.
Of course he cites the texts like “the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing”, or “their thoughts perish, they don’t take part in anything under the sun”, and so forth.
Conversely, I remind him of the rich man and Lazarus, or the thief on the cross, the souls under the altar in Revelation, and Jesus returning “with his saints”—which begs the question, why bring them back to earth for them to be resurrected with a glorified body? On and on it goes.
I was hoping you all might give me some insight as to where to study these issues and what things you might have learned about the state of the dead—personally, I’m not entirely concerned if I sleep or see the Lord immediately, as long as I’m in His arms. I know EGW took this “soul sleep” stance because she needed to defend the Investigative Judgment; after all, one can’t have people being with Jesus until their names come up in the books. (You can’t see it, but I’m shaking my head. LOL!)
Anyway, I would appreciate your insights and anything you can share; your ministry is a HUGE blessing to me.
—VIA EMAIL
Response: The “state of the dead” is a core issue for the Adventist worldview. Key passages are 2 Corinthians 5:1–9 and Philippians 1:22,23. It was compelling to me when I realized that Paul wrote 2 Corinthians in about 45 AD, and in chapter 12 where he describes being caught up to Paradise fourteen years before, that meant that before he wrote 2 Corinthians 5, he had literally SEEN heaven and knew what was happening there. He knew what happened to the dead and that their condition was “very much better” (Phil. 1:22,23) than being here in the body.
That detail of the timing of his revelation was very compelling to me after a lifetimes of Adventism. This belief was very hard for me. I finally had to decide that I had to trust the words of Scripture whether they made logical sense to me or not. I had to believe because God said them, not because I could sense the reality of the situation. When I finally decided to put my weight on believing what the words said, the inner confusion about it cleared up.
Other passages that help are 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and 3:13 (where Jesus comes with all His saints). Here are a couple of articles that also address this issue:
- What Happens When We Die?
- Are Humans More than Living Bodies?
- In Death Are We present With the Lord?
Hints of Ellen White’s Racism
I have continued to listen to your podcast and am very grateful for all the content that you present.
In one of your podcasts, I can’t remember which unfortunately, I believe you mentioned something about Ellen writing about how people with mental disabilities can’t enter heaven or understand the gospel.
I might not remember this correctly, but I tried finding quotes from Ellen about this but couldn’t find any.
Do you remember talking about this in your podcast? And where can I find Ellen’s writings about that.
—VIA EMAIL
Response: I don’t know of a place where EGW specifically said people with mental disabilities can’t go to heaven, but she did write that many slaves would become as if they had never been because they were unable to to hear or understand the gospel. She was clear that the slaves often lacked the intellectual ability to benefit from the gospel.
Adventism has extrapolated on this understanding and expanded the idea to encompass the mentally disabled. Although never, as far as I know, an official “policy” or doctrine, there was widespread embarrassment over developmentally disabled children born into Adventist families. A half century ago or so, many Adventist families who had Downs’ syndrome babies or other disabled children would quietly put them in long-care facilities so they were out of sight.
This behavior is a direct result of Adventism’s physicalism that denies an immaterial spirit that can be born again and can know God. If all we have is a brain, then the brain is the determiner of how well a person understands the gospel or serves God. Adventism has no real place for a developmentally disabled person to actually know Jesus and be born again. For them, the gospel is an intellectual achievement, and if the intellect is compromised, then salvation is as well.
Here is a link to an article that contains several of EGW’s disparaging statements about black Adventists:
Thank You For the Podcasts
You girls are amazing. Love the massive knowledge. I am studying so much, and you’re the icing on the cake. Hugs and much love to both. I can’t thank you enough for sharing your wisdom.
—VIA YOUTUBE
- May 4–10, 2024 - May 2, 2024
- We Got Mail - May 2, 2024
- April 27–May 3, 2024 - April 25, 2024