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Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream: The Gift That Keeps On Giving

Another Bible Story Quote

I’m just tagging off of an old email I sent y’all awhile back. I’m attaching a screenshot in case you guys hadn’t already looked this up.

I actually had my 10-volume set of the [Arthur Maxwell] Bible Story books in a donation pile but felt weird about donating them because I don’t want to share false info. I just figured I’d look up the Daniel question from the most recent podcast. 

God bless y’all!! Still loving the podcast content! Daniel is exceptionally interesting!

—VIA EMAIL

 

Uncle Dan, Aunt Sue, and Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream

I am still being blessed by your weekly podcast. So much good information—and it definitely stirs the pot of old teachings.

I, too, was taught that the king forgot his dream, and I couldn’t rest until I located the source. I purchased the complete set of The Bible in Living Sound from the Adventist Book Center for my little girl back in the 70’s. To be honest…I listened as much as she did. They were like a staple in the house. 😄

I am sharing the link to that portion of the story; it’s about 6 minutes if you are interested. 

Continue to keep up the awesome work, and I am looking forward to next Tuesday’s episode.

—VIA EMAIL

 

Response: It’s no wonder that we former Adventists all believed Nebuchadnezzar forgot his dream! Ellen said it, and her declaration informed books and audio recordings that shaped the worldview of countless Adventist children over several generations. It’s interesting that this detail was a foundational underpinning to our perception of Daniel in general. We never learned the significance of God’s giving a pagan king a dream that foretold the future of the world, nor did we learn that the king knew his dream was so significant that he wouldn’t risk the opportunistic interpretations of his magicians. Moreover, we believed God honored Daniel and gave him special knowledge because Daniel ate right and obeyed the law. We didn’t see God’s sovereign control over all!

 

Cheryl Was Right: Copy Daniel!

I just listened to the Daniel 2:24-49 podcast. I’m really enjoying this and know I have lots of stuff here to unpack. I’m doing what Cheryl [Granger] did, and that is I’m writing it [the book of Daniel] out. I’m writing Daniel 3 now. I’m amazed at how it slows down my thinking and helps me get more out of it. 

The big take-away from this week’s podcast was the idea that the statue still stands. I always thought of each part as being gone, but it’s not. The influence of each kingdom is still with us. It’s something worth pondering over. And what else will be crushed and gone?  

I liked how you explained the two languages [Hebrew and Aramiac] and how the Aramaic section concerns the Gentiles. That’s us. 

Your thoughts from Jeremiah, too, were helpful. God allowed the temple items to be taken for protection. Had they stayed in Jerusalem, who knows what would have happened to them along with the people had they stayed.

The application of Jeremiah 29:5–11 is that we are taken captive in a world by the enemy, and we are to build houses, marry and have children. and seek peace and prosperity for the places we are and pray for them. 

So much to think about. 

Thank you for all the work you put into doing these podcasts. 

—VIA EMAIL

Colleen Tinker
Latest posts by Colleen Tinker (see all)

3 comments

  1. I am puzzled by the strong, absolutist stance of fundamentalist Christians against any and all abortion, especially when compared with their relative disinterest in upholding the value of every life already born. I think of sending our young men and women off to war where many will certainly be killed, or supporting the death penalty for criminals, some of whom are later found to be innocent, not to mention Christians viewing the everyday, real-life issues of abject poverty and abusive homes as a lower priority for their efforts. What about the value of a mother’s life trapped in an abusive relationship, or carrying the child of rape or incest? Or a mother without the physical, mental or emotional resources to bear and/or care for a child? The news has recently carried stories of young teenagers, even a twelve-year-old, being denied an abortion. Forcing a mere child to complete a pregnancy would certainly risk life-and-health-threatening damage to her own body. Doctors may be prevented from caring for cases of incomplete natural miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy or cases where the unborn child has a condition incompatible with life. There will again be the complications and death that result from “back alley” abortions if safe and professional ones are no longer available. Is there not room for compassion and leniency for all involved here?

    Do we actually know for certain exactly when the cells of reproduction become a life with a soul? Yes, we can quote verses about God’s plan for a child in his mother’s womb. But can we absolutely know God’s mind in such complicated matters? I have read that Jewish scholars interpret the scriptures differently as to when life begins. Could it be that when an unborn child dies, for whatever reason, a just and loving God would grant him/her eternal life, without suffering a possibly miserable existence on this earth first?

    Is it right for those of us who claim to be “pro-life” (unfortunately meaning only unborn life) to force our understanding of God’s will, whose thoughts and ways are far higher than anything we are capable of understanding, onto everyone else who may have different, strongly-held belief systems? Unfortunately, history abounds with stories of death and horrible violence, meted out “in the name of God” against others who do not subscribe to the “right” moral or religious values. Can we not do all we can to relieve suffering for all people, follow our own conscience for personal decisions, and leave God to be the judge of right and wrong in others?

    Sharon Westcott
    (a recently “former” Adventist who has learned much from your publication – thanks!)

    1. Sharon, thank you for your thoughts and for writing them! I understand them completely. I also used to understand the abortion question the way you explain it.

      First, the issue of abortion is its own unique question. It must be considered as a stand-alone issue without attempting to compare/contrast it with going to war, abuse, and poverty. Those are equally important but must be considered individually on the basis of their unique concerns and facts. We can’t endorse a “wrong” because another “wrong” exists which will be exacerbated by the first “wrong”. Neither can we condemn a wrong on the basis of another issue’s concerns.

      At the heart of the abortion question is the issue of what it means to be in the image of God and what God has revealed about His human creatures in His word. What we Adventists did not learn (and which we frankly have some trouble learning to understand) was that being created in God’s image was not simply that we reflected His higher mental powers and creativity and language. Those things are the fruit of being in His image, but we were created as SPIRITUAL beings housed in a body of flesh. That spiritual part of us—which is not simply a psycho-social-mental attitude—is what makes us in God’s image.

      When He breathed His breath into Adam, man became a living soul—and that living soul is God’s image in us. (Forgive me for being a bit pedantic and detailed, but this background is the key to understanding why abortion is so serious.)

      When Adam and Eve sinned, however, they died spiritually as God said they would. He told Adam that if they ate from the tree, they would die that very day—and they did. Their immaterial spirits died; they were disconnected from God’s life. (See Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3.) They immediately knew shame. The blamed and refused to take responsibility and hid. They were now afraid of seeing God. They were still His creation made in His image, but they had been changed by sin. They still had immaterial spirits, but those spirits were now dead in trespasses and under the influence of the prince of the air, the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2:1–3). From Adam onward, every single human born has been born spiritually dead, “by nature children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3).

      That is—every human ever born except Jesus. He was born without spiritual death. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was never dead in sin. He had spiritual life from the moment He was conceived.

      It was this spiritual death that Jesus came to undo. No one but a perfect, eternal, omnipotent Creator wrapped in a human body could possibly atone for human sin. Jesus had to die a human death for human sin, but He had to have the authority to take responsibility for all humanity, and He had to be infinite in order to take the imputed sin of mankind, die a substitutionary death (not just a representative one), and adequately pay for all the sins of all who believe. There was no other way to restore life to God’s image bearers—the walking dead who are born into breathing bodies but whose literal spirits are condemned until they believe (Jn. 3:18) and who are children of wrath residing in the domain of darkness until they are brought to life in Him.

      So, with this in mind, Jesus’ words to the Samaritan woman in John 4:24 are profound and moving. Jesus declared a profound theological fact to this first-century woman—and not even a Jewish woman but an “unclean” Samaritan—when He said: “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Hi just worship in spirit and truth” (Jn. 5:23, 24).

      And there is the sentence: God Is Spirit. Our being in His image is that we are literally spirit beings, but we are housed in bodies—unlike Him. (For a more detailed description of being housed in mortal bodies, see 2 Cor. 5:1–9.) Our being in God’s image is a spiritual reality. Here Jesus is revealing that there are both true worshipers and untrue worshipers. True worshipers, as we will see as Jesus goes to the cross and rises again and sends His Spirit, are those who believe and trust Him. They are the ones who recognize their need of a Savior and see that they are dead in sin, unable to help themselves apart from the work of a Savior who must do for them what they cannot do for themselves. True worshipers are the ones who trust Him and are born again, made alive by Jesus’ sacrifice—restored to having living souls brought to life by Jesus’ own resurrection life.

      So, as for babies: every child conceived is a spirit-being with a body of flesh. This description, which we were taught was NOT TRUE, is the definition of every human ever born. Just as Jesus was sinless but human from the moment of conception, so every other baby has a spirit and a body at the moment of conception because that is the definition of a human. The fact that every human is now conceived with a spirit dead in sin does not mean they do not HAVE spirits. It simply means that they must place their faith in the Lord Jesus and receive His life.

      No other creation on earth is in God’s image. No other animal has a spirit that can worship God when it is made alive. Jesus’ statement that true worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth reveals that true worship involves both the spirit and the flesh: spirit is the immaterial part of us that can know God and receive His life; truth is cognitive and is perceived by our minds. The two, of course, work together in every human, but they are two distinct parts of true worship, and this statement made by God the Son reveals that we really do have spirits as God is spirit! This is the fact of every baby ever conceived.

      Babies have spirits and bodies that develop together, and their personal identities are there from conception, just as Jesus’s and John the Baptist’s were. When we abort babies, we are by definition killing a human life.

      Jesus forbade the Israelites from offering their children to Molech—but their idolatry grew so great that, prior to their exile, they were offering their babies to Molech. The difference between an unborn baby and a born baby is only a matter of months. It is not a matter of substance or identity or life. Everything that is human is contained within each conception and is alive.

      We cannot justify relieving the suffering of one human by killing another. If one of my children is high-achieving and driven and another has a developmental problem requiring nearly all the family time and money, depriving the driven, bright child from receiving all the lessons and training she or he deserves, I cannot fix that problem by killing the impaired child. A death will not fix the needs of another person.

      Addressing social needs is a real concern, but God asks us to deal with what He puts in front of each of us. We have to address the needs of others informed by biblical principles, not by pragmatism. And one more thing: of course there are exceptions in cases of violence and abuse, but in general, I find the bottom line issue to be often ignored when thinking about abortion: pregnancies can generally be prevented. That issue never seems to be addressed as a serious problem in this general discussion. The social issues that have created the abortion crisis are deep and tentacled. They are not simple, but killing a child created specifically and designed individually by God in its mother’s womb is not the answer.

      Of course God can take those babies to Himself—and I’m quite sure He does! That isn’t the issue. God will take the spirits of everyone who dies and care for them according to His will. The issue is our own refusal to honor the humanity and identity of each child who, according to Psalm 139, is seen and known and knit together by God while in its mother’s womb. Every child conceived, even by rape or other act of violence, is a life known by God, and it is equally as valuable as its mother’s and its father’s. Being born does not give a baby more human “value” than being unborn. The identity and humanity and life of a person is determined at conception. Each of these babies is a life that Jesus’ death and resurrection can restore to Himself, giving each dead-in-sin-spirit eternal life in His blood.

      The gospel which results in new creatures who are made spiritually alive in Christ and who are built together into “one new man” in Christ is the only answer to the social ills and suffering and cruelty and unfairness. In fact, we can’t resolve those social issues by negotiating policies. We can only address these things by our commitments to the Lord Jesus and to living according to His Spirit. Legalized abortion will not resolve the issues of suffering women and husband-less girls. A death of a person will not fix the hardship of another. Only our commitment to the truth of Scripture and submission to the Lord Jesus will reveal the true value, the true compassion we are asked to show—and it must start with the compassion and love for the our own unborn children. The most vulnerable people are the ones who need the most protecting, and the unborn are definitely those with the least ability to protect themselves.

      That being said, abortion is not a sin that is any more “unforgivable” than any other. Jesus died for all sin, and when we trust Him, His blood atones for every sin we have and will commit. He gives us that new life that makes our spirits live, and we see with new eyes. He provides answers that social policies can never give. He loves each life He forms, and He gives us His provision for all our situations.

    2. Thank you, Colleen, for your thoughtful and personal answer. I appreciate it, and will remember it as I ponder this issue further.

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