Colleen and Nikki continue their discussion through the book of Hebrews. They talk about the truth that there is no forgiveness without the blood of Jesus. Transcription by Gwen Billington.
Colleen: Welcome to Former Adventist podcast. I’m Colleen Tinker.
Nikki: And I’m Nikki Stevenson.
Colleen: Today we are going to go through Hebrews 9. This is such a rich and exciting chapter, contrasting and comparing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant and showing us how superior Jesus is to every shadow that was in the Old Covenant. But first I want to remind you that if you want to contact us, if you have questions or comments, please write to us at formeradventist@gmail.com. You can also go to proclamationmagazine.com, where you can sign up for our weekly emails, for the magazine, Proclamation!, where you can donate to Life Assurance Ministries for the magazine, for the emails, and for this podcast, and don’t forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram, and wherever you listen to your podcasts, write us a review, and don’t forget to like us and rate the program. But now, back to Hebrews 9. So, Nikki, do you remember the first time you read Hebrews 9, maybe without the Adventist glasses or maybe as you were just beginning to take them off?
Nikki: Yes, I do, and it was one of the most memorable moments for me, coming out of Adventism, probably second to reading Galatians for the first time.
Colleen: Wow.
Nikki: I had been told by people after I had left, I’d been told by many people, “Read Hebrews, you have to read Hebrews.” And I kind of had, I think, a little bit of a hesitation to do it at first because in Adventism I had been told that it was a really hard book to understand, and I had already kind of felt overwhelmed by how much I had to learn, so what I decided to do was to put my Bible in front of me and to listen. I had audio Hebrews and then I read along. I’m an audio learner, kinetic learner, it just helped me. So as I was sitting there and I got to this section where it talks about the first covenant being obsolete, I could feel this just excitement because, you know, I had been taught this really well at the conference, but I hadn’t sat down and spent time reading about it, and so here I was coming up to this evidence for it. And then it moves right from – you know, there were no chapter breaks in the original writing, so it moves right from this Old Covenant becoming obsolete and fading away, and it then describes what this first covenant that is obsolete contains, what’s a part of it. And I just sat there listening and following along as the writer of Hebrews details the tablets of the covenant being a part of this Old Covenant, this first covenant that was passing away. And so many of the arguments I had had up to that point with Adventists in my life were that the Ten Commandments were notobsolete, they weren’t a part of that covenant.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: But there were things that sat on the outside of the Ark – I’m not sure what those things were, but those things were the things that were nailed to the cross and that became obsolete, not the covenant, you know, the Ten Commandments.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: And so when I read that the Ten Commandments were a part of that, I was so excited, and yet there was a part of me that was like, “Calm down, look over this again, read this closer, make sure, because this looks really, like really good news!”
Colleen: Uh-huh. [Laughter.]
Nikki: But you’ve got to be sure. And I went over and over it, and then I finally just sat and cried. It was so overwhelming, it was just a wonderful experience. So as we go through Hebrews 9, I really hope those of you who are listening will have notes with you, will have your Bible in front of you. Because there are gems in this that you’re going to want to write down and be able to access again later, especially as you have conversations with Adventist loved ones.
Colleen: That’s so cool. What a wonderful memory. You know, I don’t actually remember the first time I read this as a former Adventist, but I remember when I memorized this chapter a few years ago, and it was overwhelming. It was so clear. There is no argument that there’s any part of the Old Covenant that can be carried into the new. And it just confirmed to me that all of my Adventist understanding really was invented. It was a lie.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Jesus is better. He’s real. He’s alive. He’s eternal, and everything He accomplished is eternal, and it can’t be undone. Even by me.
Nikki: I like how you put that: It was invented. You have to work really, really hard to hold the Adventist worldview together and still claim to believe Hebrews. Like, really, really hard.
Colleen: That’s so true. Um-hmm. And it doesn’t work well either.
Nikki: No.
Colleen: I mean, as an Adventist, Hebrews confused me terribly, with good reason. It didn’t fit the worldview.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Well, why don’t we start? Hebrews can sort of roughly be divided into four general sections, and the first one, the first section, is roughly verses 1 to 10. And Nikki, you’re going to read it this time in the ESV. I’m going to be using my NASB because that’s the edition I’m most familiar with, and we just want to urge all of you who are listening to pull out whatever version of the Bible you use, as long as it’s a good translation, and not the Clear Word, and follow along. And, like Nikki said earlier, have something to take notes because this chapter is amazing. So, Nikki, do you want to read the first part for us?
Nikki: I do. And just because of how exciting it is, I just want to read the last verse of the last section too. So that would be 8:13. “In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant. Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the Holy Places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Colleen: Okay. This starts by just remembering what the earthly tabernacle looked like, how it was arranged and organized. When you look at verses 1 and 2, what comes to your mind? What do you remember? Do you remember anything about how Moses did it? It said, “Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship in the earthly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.” What’s that describing?
Nikki: Well, that’s describing the order of worship given by God to the Israelites in the Mosaic covenant.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: It was very specific, and He gave Moses very specific details on how He wanted all of this done.
Colleen: Now, I don’t know if you did this, Nikki, as a kid, but in Adventist school I remember having to draw diagrams of the tabernacle, placing the furniture and the curtains and the courtyards. I mean, we Adventists took all of this very, very seriously, and to what effect I’m not even sure. But I do remember, we spent a lot of time drawing diagrams. Did you ever have to do that?
Nikki: I didn’t, but I didn’t go to Adventist school all the way through.
Colleen: Consider yourself fortunate. [Laughter.]
Nikki: I do. I do. [Laughter.]
Colleen: My head is full of images from all of these ages old diagrams. But we all remember, if we’re Adventists at all, that the Holy Place in the earthly tabernacle had the candlestick, the table of showbread, and I learned it had one other piece in it, and here’s the point that had caused me some confusion for a while because what do verses 3 and 4 say?
Nikki: “Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.”
Colleen: Now, it was that table with the altar of incense there that confused me when I read Hebrews. And I went back, and I looked. I looked it up in Exodus, Exodus 40:3 and 4 and 5, and the Old Testament described the altar of incense being in the Holy Place, not the Most Holy Place, but it did have it placed right in front of the curtain, or the veil, that separated the two compartments. It was interesting to me when I read that the author of Hebrews probably placed it inside the curtain because the function of the altar of incense was very intimately connected with the Day of Atonement sacrifices. And I looked this up in Exodus as well, and it’s true. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, on that one day a year when he would enter, he would enter with the blood of the sin offering, and he would come into the Most Holy Place, he’d stop at the altar of incense, right outside the veil. He would pick up incense, he would go through the veil, and he would put the incense with the blood of the sin offering on the mercy seat. So in addition to having the incense always burning – interestingly, that’s what Zechariah was in the temple doing when Gabriel came to him and said he was going to have a son and struck him dumb because he didn’t believe. He was doing his rotation in the temple, and he was putting incense on that altar. So that always had to be burning. It represented the prayers of the people. But that incense was part of the Day of Atonement offering. So that is likely why it’s placed in with the furnishings of the Most Holy Place, because it was intimately connected.
Nikki: That’s interesting.
Colleen: There’s something else about verse 4. What does it say was in the ark? We talked about this before the podcast, Nikki, and it was kind of interesting because it’s very contradictory to how we learned this as Adventists.
Nikki: Yeah. I thought this was really interesting. So inside the ark was a golden urn holding the manna and Aaron’s staff that budded and the tablets of the covenant.
Colleen: In the beginning what was the manna?
Nikki: The manna was God’s provision to Israel as He took them out of Egypt.
Colleen: And it’s interesting that in Exodus 16 – that’s the chapter that tells about the manna – at the end of the chapter, God tells Moses to have Aaron take an urn or a jar, a golden jar, of manna and place it in the ark for a memory, for a witness to the nation of Israel for the rest of their days. This was a memorial to the way God provided for His people when they were in the desert and had no food. He was their bread of life. That symbol of God as their provider, of Jesus who was to come as the Bread of Life, that was put in the ark with the law. Do you remember anything about Aaron’s rod that budded?
Nikki: So I didn’t remember this story when I was studying for the podcast. I wasn’t sure what this was about, and I found it very interesting, as you explained it to me, that this represented the Levitical priesthood, the authority of the Levitical priesthood.
Colleen: Yes. In fact, I had forgotten the details of the story. I just remembered there had been some sort of rumbling and discontent among Israel that Aaron was the high priest. So I went and looked it up, and in Numbers 17 we find the story. In 16 and 17 of Numbers, we learn that the Israelites are getting really irritated because Aaron has all this authority, he’s the high priest, and what made him better than all the rest of them? God had already given the law by this time, and He had already assigned Levi, the tribe of Levi, the job of being the priests. But apparently people from the other tribes were irritated that they had that authority. Moses spoke to God, and God said, “Okay, here’s what you do: You get a representative from every one of the 12 tribes to bring you a bare almond branch and have them put their names on it so that there will be a branch representing each tribe with their names on it so it’s clear which branch belongs to which tribe. You bring all 12 branches into the tent, into the tabernacle, and put them in front of the ark containing the tablets and see what happens.” So Moses did. He had all the tribes bring a branch, put their names on it, stood them up in front of the ark inside the tabernacle, and one day later one branch had budded, had blossomed, and had produced ripe almonds, and that was Aaron’s branch. God showed Israel incontrovertibly that the priesthood was His appointment, His assignment, and Aaron was His man. And that branch that budded was put in the ark along with the tables of the law and with the representation of God’s provision in the manna so that forever Israel would remember that that Levitical priesthood was God’s designated assignment for the tribe of Levi.
Nikki: When God gives the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy chapter 5, the first thing He says is, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.” And that manna, that’s a part of Passover for them. They know what that represents, God redeeming them from Egypt.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: So they have this history of God, then they have the law that God gave them, and then they have the priesthood.
Colleen: Yeah.
Nikki: And it makes me think of Hebrews 7, where there’s a change in the priesthood, there’s a change in the law as well. So you have this Mosaic covenant contained in the ark and God’s presence sitting above it. God is above all of this.
Colleen: This is His doing.
Nikki: Yeah, it’s really incredible. All of these things are a part of this first covenant, which we just read in 8:13 is fading away, is obsolete.
Colleen: And what overshadowed all of these symbolic things in that golden ark, in verse 5? There was something above all of that in the Most Holy Place.
Nikki: It says, “Above were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat.”
Colleen: Isn’t that so interesting, that the part of the ark that sat over the law, between the golden cherubim, was called in the Mosaic covenant the mercy seat, and it was over the mercy seat that God put His shekinah glory that would glow in the Most Holy Place in that tabernacle in the wilderness. God put His presence there, visibly, in the form of light, on the mercy seat, and that mercy seat was where the atoning blood, every Day of Atonement, would be sprinkled for cleansing for the nation. So even in Israel, even before Jesus came, God gave Israel representations of His mercy as well as His justice and of His promise that they were His people and He would ultimately provide for their eternal security. I just think it’s fascinating that that was called the mercy seat when the law was a covenant of death to them. So then we come to verse 6, and in the next 5 verses we read about the Levitical priesthood. What do we learn in verse 6? It says, “When these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship.” What does that make you think?
Nikki: Well, they’re constantly working, they’re constantly working on behalf of the people.
Colleen: And it strikes me that they’re continually working, and to be continually working, what’s their physical posture?
Nikki: Well, they’ve got to be on their feet.
Colleen: And walking around. They’re busy. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.] Yeah.
Colleen: Yeah. They’re busy doing things. And they’re performing the worship, and I think that’s interesting too because the divine worship in the outer tabernacle – well, we already learned what was in there. What was in that outer tabernacle that they had to maintain?
Nikki: The lampstand and the table and the bread of the presence.
Colleen: As well as the incense, even though that isn’t mentioned in this case. It’s interesting to me that in the book of Leviticus we learn that that showbread had to be baked fresh every week and put out and changed out every, mind you, Sabbath. So those priests had to do the work of changing out the showbread every Sabbath, they were working on that. It wasn’t Friday before sundown. It was Sabbath when they had to change out the showbread. So the priests were always keeping the lamps filled with oil, keeping the flame burning, keeping the bread out, keeping the incense burning. All of this was the divine worship that God had commanded for Israel. And then in 7 we learn what was going on in the Most Holy Place in the Old Covenant.
Nikki: So this happened only once a year, and only the high priest could do this, could go in there, and he took blood for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people, which was fascinating to me the first time I read that.
Colleen: Talk about that.
Nikki: Well, in Adventism, we didn’t have that luxury. We had to remember every single sin or it wouldn’t be covered. I mean, that is why so many Adventists die feeling very anxious: “Have I remembered everything?” I have family members who were tormented as they were sick and dying, “Have I remembered to confess everything?” Israel had a sacrifice for the unintentional sins.
Colleen: Isn’t that fascinating? The intentional sins, or the knowing or premeditated sins, were covered by other requirements of the law. That’s what the sin offerings were for that the people had to bring. That’s what the gifts and the reparations that they had to pay to people were for. If they committed a sin that they knew they were committing, the law told them how they had to atone for it. But there were unintentional sins that they didn’t know they committed or that they committed by accident. Even their own depravity with which they were born, their hearts that were deceptive and desperately wicked that they couldn’t even know themselves, as Jeremiah said, those were unintentional sins that they were not conscious of, and the Day of Atonement sacrifice was for those. But Adventism and our prophetEllen told us we had to remember every sin, we confess, every sin we committed or it would not be forgiven, and I can tell you, that caused me so much insomnia when I was a teenager. I lived in terror that I had unremembered sins that I couldn’t confess and that I would be lost because of that. When we look up verse 8, we see that the Holy Spirit is signifying something with these Old Covenant rituals. What does it say in verse 8, Nikki?
Nikki: “By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the Holy Places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing.”
Colleen: Now, it’s interesting because this author tends to use the Holy Place and the Holy Places in a sense that means where God is, into the presence of God. What is he actually saying when he says, the Holy Spirit is signifying, by all of these continual acts of worship, that the way into the Holy Place has not yet been disclosed?
Nikki: Well, it seems to me that as long as the Old Covenant is in effect, and as long as there are these ongoing sacrifices, then the Messiah hasn’t yet come. But when He does come, they end.
Colleen: And then in verse 9 he kind of continues that thought. Do you want to read verse 9 – actually, let’s do 9 and 10 again.
Nikki: So verse 9 says, “(which is symbolic for the present age).” And I just want to say, my note says that it means also “(which is symbolic for the age then present).” So at the time that it was happening. “According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.”
Colleen: So at the time this was written, Titus had not yet destroyed Jerusalem, and the temple was still standing. And in spite of the fact that Jesus was already resurrected and ascended and that that curtain had torn, the priests were still carrying out the rituals in that temple, and the author is basically saying here, “You can’t go back to that. It’s obsolete. It’s been declared worthless at this point. You have to remember that that Old Covenant was only effective in the way God intended it. It was a shadow representing what was coming. For this present time, we realize these gifts and sacrifices can’t perfect us. We now have Jesus. Don’t go back to that. Even though that temple worship is beautiful, even though it’s a habit, a beautiful habit, in your past, you can’t go back. It is not going to cleanse you.” I was really struck also in verse 10 by how he emphasized the fact that those rituals were all about physical things, not spiritual things. They were physical representations of things, but like we said last week, they foreshadowed spiritual events and spiritual things that Jesus accomplished in His life, death, resurrection, and ascension that changed forever how we approach God. Those old things were just physical. We were talking about this a little earlier, and you said something so insightful. Could you say that again, Nikki, about how this reminds you of Galatians?
Nikki: Yeah, verse 8 reminds me of Galatians, where it says, “By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the Holy Places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing.” And it gives me the picture of the Jews trying to access God through the temple system, through the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place, but Christ tore the veil, and He made a different way, and there is no access to the Holy Places through this temple ceremony or service anymore.
Colleen: That’s so insightful, and you know, the verses right before this have just been describing that Old Testament priesthood and the Old Testament rituals, the outer tabernacle worship, so I think that’s exactly what he’s saying. That doesn’t do us any good now that Jesus has come. And as the author is writing, the temple is still standing, and there are still priests trying to keep these ceremonies alive, even though the veil was torn. But then he goes on and explains whyit can’t help us. What does he say about it in verses 9 and 10? Why can’t those old ceremonies help us access God?
Nikki: He says they cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, that they only deal with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body. It’s the physicality of it.
Colleen: That whole temple system, the whole law and temple system, was about physical shadows of spiritual realities that became clear only when Jesus came and completed His work of atonement. In verses 11 to 14, we’re going to see how Jesus and His blood and ministry were better than the Old Covenant priesthood and blood, and we’re going to learn what they’ve accomplished. So would you mind reading 11 through 14?
Nikki: “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) He entered once for all into the Holy Places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”
Colleen: In verse 11, what do we learn that Christ came and appeared to do? He appeared as what?
Nikki: He appeared as a high priest, and we know that that’s after the order of Melchizedek.
Colleen: And He’s a high priest of the good things to come, which suggests our eternal future. He’s the high priest of our eternity. “He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation.” So what is that, Nikki?
Nikki: Well, we see in other verses that that is heaven itself. I worried when I first read this and scratched my head, wait a minute, is this what Ellen White said is in heaven? But it’s not. It’s heaven itself, where God dwells.
Colleen: It’s an amazing thing. And He entered on the basis of what, according to verse 12?
Nikki: Of His own blood.
Colleen: Now, that’s just stunning. If you think about it, it’s so unintuitive, no human could have figured out this. The high priests entered the Most Holy Place bearing the blood of animals that would temporarily or figuratively atone for the sins of Israel. But Jesus didn’t do that. He entered heaven, not just a shadow, not just a foreshadowing, not just a physical representation of something bigger than that. He entered heaven itself through His own blood, and what did this blood accomplish?
Nikki: It secured an eternal redemption.
Colleen: That is amazing, an eternal redemption. And how many times did He have to do this? The high priest in Israel had to do it every year.
Nikki: He did this once for all. And you know, I’d love to point out here, this is a fantastic proof that the bloodless atonement is heresy. My version says that He entered “by means of His own blood.” The blood was necessary, and we’ll see that as we move further through Hebrews 9. This is a very important thing, and it’s not just in Adventism. This is in progressive Christianity, and I just want to put a plug in for a documentary called “American Gospel: Christ Crucified,” which does a fantastic job of explaining why the bloodless atonement is heretical.
Colleen: Thank you for that. You can’t have eternal redemption and say that the blood wasn’t necessary or say that it was just a symbol of the lengths to which He would go. It was necessary. It is what cleanses us. That’s a great point. And then 13 and 14, “For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ,” – like he just said, Nikki – “who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Well, what do we learn that the blood of Christ has done for us personally?
Nikki: It’s cleansed our consciences.
Colleen: Isn’t that amazing?
Nikki: We can fill that out with other Scripture. In giving us a new heart and a new spirit and putting His Spirit in us, He’s cleansed our consciences from dead works. Doesn’t that make you think of Hebrews 3 and 4, when we read that and it talked about resting from our works as God has rested from His?
Colleen: It does. It’s echoing that.
Nikki: And it’s all so that we can serve the living God.
Colleen: Now, I think that’s really interesting. We are given this new life, this cleansed conscience, this new heart, this new life in God, in Christ, so we can serve Him.
Nikki: I get sick of hearing people say that these New Covenant Christians don’t – you know, they’re antinomian, they don’t think they have to keep the law. And I want to send you to Romans 6:9-13, and that will help give a picture of what we now know is true: Serving God in the Spirit, by the Spirit, doing the works He prepared in advance for us to do, like we read about in Ephesians chapter 2 –
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: – it really is freedom. I remember I had a relative who was dying in agony, couldn’t remember all his sins, wasn’t sure where he was going to go, and he was arguing with me about Christians, and he said, “I keep hearing them say they’re free, they’re free. What are they free from?” And I was just a new believer, and I was very intimidated and didn’t know how to speak to him about it, and I wish I had told him this passage, that we are free now to serve the living God according to the Spirit.
Colleen: That’s an amazing promise, an amazing reality. And one more thing that these verses points out to me, verse 13 states that the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of the heifer sprinkled those who have been defiled for the cleansing of the flesh. Now, that’s not the Spirit, that’s not the new birth, but in Israel those yearly sacrifices on the Day of Atonement were necessary for the cleansing of the people. They were shadows of what Jesus was going to do. And then in 14, of course, we learn that it’s once and done when Jesus sprinkles His blood and we trust Him. I just want to say this, Adventism taught us that on the Day of Atonement, when the high priest took the blood of those sacrifices into the Most Holy Place, he was transferring sins from the people into the presence of God so that they could be forgiven, that the blood was a means of cleansing the sins of the people by getting them off the people, getting them off the tabernacle, getting them off the tent and off the people into the presence of God, that it somehow moved sin from people into God’s presence. Well, that’s just not true. In Leviticus 16 we learn that the blood of the Day of Atonement did cleanse the tabernacle, but it says it was because it was standing in the midst of the sins of the nation. The tabernacle was physical. The tabernacle was built by sinful humans. The blood on the Day of Atonement was cleansing all of that. It wasn’t transferring sin. But that teaching gave Ellen the “right” to say that Jesus’ blood transferred our sins into heaven and that that’s what He’s going through the books trying to see. The sins of the saved that are written in the books, if we’ve confessed them, He can then apply His blood. But if we haven’t, they still stand against us because His blood merely transferred the sin from us to heaven pending the completion of the judgment. And I have to say again, the end story of her Investigative Judgment, which has defiled heaven with our sins by the blood of Jesus, is to place the sins of the saved on Satan, the scapegoat, who will bear them out of heaven and cleanse heaven. It’s a horrifying doctrine, but blood never defiled, blood never transferred sin, blood always cleansed sin, even in the Old Testament. It never transferred sin. Well, let’s move on to 15 through 22. Would you mind reading that? This section contrasts the Old and the New Covenants and explains how covenants work and how the first foreshadowed the new.
Nikki: “Therefore He is the mediator of a New Covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, ‘This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.’ And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”
Colleen: Well, it’s interesting here that the author is comparing in verses 16 and 17, after saying again that Jesus is the mediator of a New Covenant, again very clearly saying, this is something that’s not just an extension of the old. It’s something new. It’s a new priest, a new blood, a New Covenant, and that this has all been made possible because a death has occurred. Whose death was that?
Nikki: It was the death of Christ.
Colleen: It’s interesting that in 15 the author is saying that Jesus is the mediator of a New Covenant, not an extension of the old, but something completely new, a new priest, a new blood, a New Covenant, and he even says that Jesus’ blood secured the redemption of the people in the Old Covenant. Those sacrifices of animals could not cleanse the sin. They were like place holders, they were like shadows of what was to come, and when Jesus finally died, the blood was shed that actually forgave the people in the Old Covenant of their sins. It worked backwards, and now it’s working forwards into eternity as well. And it also says that this was not a universal salvation, and I think that’s really important because I hear progressive Adventists saying things like that sometimes, that we’re all born saved and forgiven because Jesus’ blood accomplished that. If we aren’t saved, we have to opt out. Well, this is not what that’s saying. What is it saying about who gets this forgiveness in verse 15?
Nikki: It’s those who are called.
Colleen: And we’ve seen that before. We see that in Romans, we see it in Romans 8, Ephesians 1. Those who are called are those whose sins are forgiven by Jesus’ blood. And even those who were called in the Old Covenant are finally forgiven by Jesus’ blood. It works backwards and forwards. And then in 16 and 17 he uses the idea of covenant, or will and testament, the word can be interchanged, and he uses it in that sense, and what’s the metaphor he uses here?
Nikki: Well, he talks about a will, and he says that “where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.” And I remember how helpful that was to me when I first read that, because covenants, that can get confusing. At least it was for me when I was trying to make sense of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and the history of covenants in the Bible, but the will made sense to me because we still – you know, we do that now in our culture, and it helped me understand that this was a plan that was established before the death –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – but that didn’t take effect until after.
Colleen: And the Old Covenant was like the promise that this was going to happen, and they kept living out the physical representations of this reality that God promised, and remember, He first promised it, actually, to Eve, when He said her seed would crush the serpent, but He made it even more explicit in His promise to Abraham. And now we see Jesus has come, and He is fulfilling those promises.
Nikki: This again takes me back to Galatians where it says that the Mosaic covenant came 400 years after Abraham until the seed would come.
Colleen: Yeah.
Nikki: And we have the seed here, and now He’s inaugurated this New Covenant, or will, as they’re putting it here. It’s so consistent, isn’t it?
Colleen: It is. In 19 through 21, we learn how Moses inaugurated the Mosaic covenant, and it’s so interesting that even in the inauguration of that covenant, there are symbols that pointed forward to Jesus in the New Covenant. What does it say he did in 19, Nikki?
Nikki: Well, first it says that a covenant cannot be inaugurated without blood.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And so then it goes on to tell us that he took the blood of calves and goats, and he sprinkled it on the book and on the people, and what he said is so interesting to me because it sounds so much like Jesus. He said, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”
Colleen: And Jesus said what, in Matthew when He inaugurated the New Covenant at the Last Supper?
Nikki: That’s Matthew 26:28.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: “For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
Colleen: Isn’t that amazing? Similar words, both covenants had to be inaugurated with blood. Jesus’ death is what has made the inheritance available, the inheritance that was promised in the New Covenant, the inheritance that was promised to Abraham, the inheritance that was acted out and foreshadowed in the Mosaic covenant, and now Jesus inaugurates it with His blood, and we see how even the Old Covenant, Moses foreshadowed that by sprinkling the book of the law, the people, and it even says in verses 21 and 22, he sprinkled the tabernacle with blood and all the vessel of ministry with the blood. They were all built by sinful men. Even those things had to be cleansed with blood when the covenant was inaugurated. And then in verse 22 we have this text, which a lot of – well, I think a lot of people, but I know even some Adventists, don’t really like to deal with. What does it say, Nikki?
Nikki: It says, “Under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”
Colleen: As you said before, there’s no such thing as a bloodless atonement. We can’t argue that God would forgive anyway. He set it up this way. We don’t know why, but we know He did, and we have to take His word to mean what it says. The blood of Jesus is necessary, and it’s that that cleanses us from our sin. So finally, we end with verses 23 to 28, where the author contrasts the spiritual reality of the Old Covenant with what we need to actually get to heaven. Would you mind reading those verses for us?
Nikki: “Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into Holy Places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Places every year with blood not his own, for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.”
Colleen: This is an amazing section. So when you read 23, what do you understand it to be saying?
Nikki: Well, when I read 23, it makes me think this is a great verse to support the fact that everything that we’ve just read about was foreshadowing what Christ would do. It was necessary. It was needed. The Mosaic Law showed us, it pointed to Christ and to the cross with all of its rituals and all of the things that went on there.
Colleen: And then in verses 24 and 25, what does it say Christ actually did?
Nikki: Well, He entered into heaven itself.
Colleen: Yeah. Not some building somewhere in the sky.
Nikki: No.
Colleen: And what did He do when He entered?
Nikki: Well, He went to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Colleen: And it was once, not over and over like the high priests. He offered Himself once, not often, but with His own blood, and that one time was sufficient for eternity. And then it says, if His blood hadn’t been sufficient, in verse 26, what would He have had to do?
Nikki: He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world.
Colleen: Isn’t that interesting? Since Adam and Eve.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: But His once and for all sacrifice worked backwards, clear to the first people, and forwards, clear until the end of all things. It’s once and done, and it’s amazing. And then what does it mean when it says, “but now once at the consummation of the ages” – or your version said –
Nikki: It says, “Once for all at the end of the ages.”
Colleen: So the consummation is like the pinnacle, the peak, the point at which we have been aiming all this time. Yours says, “The end of the ages,” but at the consummation of the ages, Jesus has been manifested. And what does it mean to be manifested? That’s what my version says.
Nikki: To be made seen.
Colleen: He became seen. He became human. He was incarnate into a human body, with a human body that could die, with human blood that could be shed. He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And how did He put away sin? How did His sacrifice do that?
Nikki: Well, He was a propitiation for sin. He became sin.
Colleen: It says that in 2 Corinthians 5:21, He became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. How this works, we don’t know. But it’s a miraculous transaction that was done in God Himself, that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all participated in, and Jesus was the visible, physical, human means of this incrediblepropitiation. And that’s why He came. It says He came once at the consummation of the ages to put away sin. He put away sin by paying the price of its curse and by breaking the curse of death so that sin no longer has the last word over us. Even though we’re born into sin, even though we’re born into the domain of darkness, when we trust Jesus, that curse, that inevitable eternal death, is undone because of His one-time sacrifice.
Nikki: One of the things that stood out to me related to His sacrifice for us, for His propitiation, I hadn’t noticed last time when I read through Hebrews that the comparison here was the Day of Atonement, and it hadn’t occurred to me that the Day of Atonement was specifically for unintentional sin, and this makes me think about the conversations we’ve had about the security of the believer.
Colleen: Yeah.
Nikki: And one of the arguments, that we cannot know we’re saved or that we cannot be secure in that salvation, is that we have to be continuously aware of and repenting for all of our sins. But here we see, introduced by Hebrews chapter 8, that there is a New Covenant and a new sacrifice and a new high priest, and it is mirroring the Day of Atonement, which covers the unintentional sins of man, it is inaugurated by the blood of Christ, and it covers our sins once for all. It’s actually the new birth and being alive in Christ that secures our salvation. It’s His giving us new life. It’s His adopting us on the basis of the sacrifice that Christ made for us, and it covers all of it.
Colleen: It’s amazing. It’s almost hard to talk about. It’s bigger than I have words for.
Nikki: Yeah, and it’s definitely a better covenant.
Colleen: Oh, yes. Based on Jesus’ own promises, His eternal blood. And this chapter ends with such an amazing promise. He compares the fact that we die once – and it’s important to notice in verse 27, it says, “Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,” in other words we don’t get a second chance after death to come to the Lord. He presents Jesus to us before we die, and we believe or not while we’re still alive in our bodies. But then it says, “Christ, having been offered once to bear sins, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await him.” And I couldn’t help contrasting this with my belief as an Adventist, that the next thing we’ll know is Jesus coming, and that will be a great and terrible day because then we’ll find out if we’re saved or not. No. We know now that we’re saved when we believe in Jesus. He assures us that we are. He puts His Spirit in our hearts. He teaches us to call Him “Abba, Father.” And when He comes again, those who are, not who will, but who are eagerly awaiting Him. He is coming for them with no reference to sin. Isn’t that an amazing promise?
Nikki: It is amazing, and it’s amazing to me that that’s just as sure as the fact that it’s appointed for each of us to die once. It is certain.
Colleen: We can take this to the bank. We can know. We can know we’re saved, and we can know that when we see Jesus coming, it will be not to deal with sin but to take us physically home in glory.
Nikki: And I think it’s important to notice too that this is the fruit of the gospel. This is because of everything else that we just read. This is because of what Christ did. That’s the gospel. In Adventism, the gospel is often defined as “Jesus is coming again.”
Colleen: And if you haven’t trusted Jesus, if you haven’t placed your faith in the gospel, the good news of His life, His death, His burial, and His resurrection three days later according to Scripture, if you haven’t trusted His eternal sacrifice for your sin, please read through Hebrews 8 and 9 again and ask the Lord to show you what you need to trust Him with. Ask the Lord to bring your heart to repentance and to reveal Himself to you as your Savior, and place your trust in Him. We’re thankful that you’re with us as we’re journeying through Hebrews. It’s actually the meat of the gospel, isn’t it, Nikki? [Laughter.]
Nikki: Yes, it is. [Laughter.]
Colleen: It’s deep and sometimes even hard to articulate, but it’s amazing and so filled with hope. So if you’d like to contact us, have questions for us, write to us at formeradventist@gmail.com, or you can subscribe to Proclamation! or our weekly emails at proclamationmagazine.com, and please like us on Facebook and Instagram, and wherever you listen to podcasts, write us a review and rate the podcast. And thank you for being with us, and we’ll see you next time.
Nikki: Bye.
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