Colleen and Nikki discuss the fears they experienced during scary times as Adventists and how they are facing the current crisis. Podcast was published March 18, 2020. Transcription by Gwen Billington.
Nikki: Welcome to Former Adventist podcast. I’m Nikki Stevenson.
Colleen: And I’m Colleen Tinker.
Nikki: Today we’re doing our podcast a little bit differently, aren’t we, Colleen?
Colleen: We sure are. It feels odd to me. [Laughter.]
Nikki: Yeah, it does. Because of issues of social distancing quarantine, we’re both recording from our own homes.
Colleen: This is a really new thing. It’s hard to be sitting here across from nothing. My table’s empty. But I do have my coffee in the mug you usually drink from, Nikki. [Laughter.]
Nikki: Aww. I do have my coffee too, although I confess, it’s cold, and it’s not as good as yours. [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.] At least it’s coffee.
Nikki: Yes. So as we face a situation like this, a lot of stuff comes up, doesn’t it?
Colleen: It sure does. What was it like as an Adventist for you, Nikki, to walk through something like this, something big that affected the whole community, maybe the whole country? What was it like as an Adventist?
Nikki: There were always weather issues; you know, hurricanes and things like that, that would get people thinking and talking about end of time situations, but probably the biggest event in my life that I recall this kind of thing coming up would be 9/11 –
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: – and then, not long after that, the bird flu was a big scare, at least in our area. It’s interesting to reflect on that.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: I had a lot of fear. I wondered if I should be running to the hills. Was it time for me to be running to the hills, because, you know, that was always very vague.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: There would be a time when we’d have to run to the hills, but there was no – at least in my learning, there was no indication of what I was looking for, when that would happen, so –
Colleen: That’s true.
Nikki: – I pretty much just thought if there was any talk of martial law, I had to figure out how to run to the hills beforemartial law took effect, and you know, 9/11 was right when I was engaged, and I wondered how on earth would I ever convince Carel to run to the hills –
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: – I’m not sure I could, and so there was a lot of anxiety about that. [Laughter.]
Colleen: I can imagine. [Laughter.]
Nikki: Yeah. Also, these kind of things, they just caused me to take Sabbath-keeping more seriously, the buying, the selling.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: I was more relaxed about that, you know, in the day-to-day.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: But when these events would happen, I would feel like, okay, maybe now it’s time. Because I think I always had in the back of my head, “When I see last day events come, I’ll be more careful about the Sabbath.”
Colleen: Oh; right.
Nikki: I don’t know if that was just the thought of the progressive Adventist or where that came from, but –
Colleen: Yeah, I think it was common.
Nikki: Did you experience that too?
Colleen: Well, I did. What I remember as the first crisis that I can really remember being deeply impacted by was a long time before – probably before you were born, Nikki. It was 1963, a long time before you were born. I was 10 years old, and I remember going through the Cuban Missile Crisis. Now, I suppose a lot of people listening to us won’t remember that, but I think some will. It was a terrifying time. President Kennedy was in the Oval Office, and my parents distrusted him already because he was the first Catholic president. But the risk of nuclear war was very, very real. America was terrorized by the possibility that Fidel Castro would launch a nuclear missile at the United States. He was threatening to do so. And what I remember, in my very conservative Adventist family, was the fear of my parents, particularly my mother. I don’t remember any of the words. I don’t remember any planning for evacuation or hill-running, but I remember her fear, her fear which didn’t even have to be spoken. It was palpable and filled the house, and I lived in terror that we were going to be blown up and gone before we could blink an eye. That was the first. So there was that. But as time went on, these crises would often come back to “what could I do,” and they often revolved around health, and I’m finding that old triggers are coming up for me with this coronavirus scare.
Nikki: Oh, yeah.
Colleen: I don’t feel like I have to change things, but I certainly am remembering all the bargaining that I learned to do with, well, we should be planting our own garden; we should be not eating meat because, you know, we have to build our immune systems, and the old fear that meat would just tear us down and make us sick, and dairy and eggs and those kinds of things have cropped up.
Nikki: Isn’t that something. Now, how long have you been out of Adventism?
Colleen: Twenty years.
Nikki: And it still comes.
Colleen: It’s not like a fear that I have to do this, but what I notice in talking with Richard is that because we are in one of those high-risk groups, the, you know, mid-60s, we’ve felt really convicted that we have to be careful. Because of the mandates from the government, we feel we need to honor the authorities that are over us, and we also need to act in the common sense of what do you do in the case of a global pandemic. We are attempting to limit our exposure to the outside world. We have canceled the Sunday lunches we have hosted for 20 years. That feels like a tremendous loss to me. Our church has ceased to hold regular services, but to broadcast online, as so many churches have done. But when Richard and I talk, it’s the noticing the symptoms, it’s like, “Oh, oh, there’s a little sore throat. Oh, we’d better start increasing the vitamin C,” like we could actually prevent something major with vitamin C. But nevertheless, you know, those things are there. What about you? How are you and your family handling this particular crisis?
Nikki: It’s different now. When you know God, it’s very different.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: As an Adventist, when these things would come up, my feeling of needing to prepare really was more about understanding – okay, because I did not understand Adventism. I really – the 2300-day prophecy –
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: – was so over my head. And so when I saw these things happening, it was, like I said, “I have to keep the Sabbath. I have to figure out the 2300-day prophecy.” I would push into that a little bit. “I have to figure out all of the things that this situation might be fulfilling from Ellen White’s prophecies.” And I remember after 9/11 there was a book. It was volume 9, page 11, and it was some prophecy about buildings falling.
Colleen: [Sigh.]
Nikki: You know, all of that kind of stuff was really what consumed my thinking and how I would get through these things, and so now, with this COVID-19, my anxieties are rooted in the actual situation.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: They’re not coming from all of the PTSD catastrophizing that comes from being raised in – I’m just going to say it – an apocalyptic, cultic religion. So the anxieties are more connected to what’s actually happening, the concern about my loved ones who fall in the risk groups, my anxieties about isolation and my children being in school, and so there are definitely real things to worry about, but what’s different now is: Knowing God has completely changed my thought life. So while I still respond with fear and worry, I now have a place I can take those thoughts –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – and reshape them with the truth that I have from who God is and what He’s done and knowing Him. It completely changes it. So I have to say the way my family is dealing with this is with a lot of bringing to mind what we know about God –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – a lot of revisiting the sovereignty of God, understanding that this is not a surprise to Him. And being able to talk to my kids about that, I see far less anxiety from them than I ever experienced as a kid going through anything scary.
Colleen: Oh, that’s such a gift to them.
Nikki: It’s kind of incredible to see.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: It’s really just we’re reminding ourselves of what’s true about God, of the fact that He knew this was coming. Not only did He know it, but I believe that God purposes the events of human history.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And one of the places where I came to really begin to look deeply into the attributes of God was in J.I. Packers’ book, “Knowing God.” He says, “God has infinite power ruled by infinite wisdom, omniscience governing omnipotence.”
Colleen: Wow.
Nikki: Realizing that He knows the whole picture. Everything is progressing towards His plan.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: And knowing that He is so powerful and He has this, it allows me to relax and know that, “No, this is supposed to happen” –
Colleen: Yes!
Nikki: – and this isn’t me suffering through Satan’s attack on me. You know what I mean?
Colleen: Oh, yes. That’s such a good point. Because that was where I used to go: “Somehow this is Satan’s attack, and I have to bolster myself against Satan so that” –
Nikki: Yep.
Colleen: – “he doesn’t deceive me, carry me away, get me to sin inadvertently in the middle of this crisis.”
Nikki: Exactly.
Colleen: I now see God being sovereign over situations, not Satan, and you know, as an Adventist, I did learn – and in fact, it was sort of drilled into me – that God never will cause bad things. Now, I’m not saying God causes bad things, but we were taught that we can never blame God for the things that happen, we have to blame Satan. And you know, if that’s true, then Satan is sovereign over God. But we were taught that; right?
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: That God limits His omnipotence to allow Satan free will. That’s blasphemy.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Satan is a fallen created being who is under the control of God. God does not allow Satan to do anything that He doesn’t permit and have in His ultimate plan.
Nikki: Right.
Colleen: When this kind of thing happens, I have to see myself as being in God’s plan, in God’s reality, not in Satan’s, and me trying to find a way to dig out of Satan’s attack.
Nikki: And I always had this picture that while I was in the middle of that kind of demonic attack, Satan’s attack on us, that God was sitting back kind of testing me, like, “How are you going to respond?”
Colleen: Yeah.
Nikki: “Are you faithful? Do you belong to me?” And I think that really works with “The Sabbath is the last test of the true believer” –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – you know, kind of mindset, is that God just sits back and watches, “What are you going to do?”
Colleen: Yes. Well, you know, just before we did this podcast, I was having a conversation with a former Adventist, a person in another state, far away from us. This person was saying that this whole thing with the coronavirus and the quarantining and the social distancing has brought up all of the old eschatological fears, the fear of “maybe I should keep the Sabbath again, maybe they were right, because I always believed it would be some kind of virus, some kind of disease that would drive the world into the end times,” and “What side of this was I going to be on?” This person isn’t returning to Sabbath-keeping, but the fears are there, and the ambiguity of what’s really real is there. And I just want to say, we were taught the wrong thing about God and the gospel. We were taught as Adventists essentially that the Second Coming was the heart of the gospel, and the Bible says completely differently. Jesus and His death on the cross and His burial and His resurrection are the gospel. But as long as we think that Jesus’ coming is the gospel, then anything like this is going to trigger all those old fears, and I remember Tim Martin saying, when he spoke at an FAF conference a few years ago in his talk, “Roots, Shoots, and Those in Cahoots” – it’s worth watching online on YouTube if you haven’t seen it – he said, “All of the Millerite eschatological cults that came out of William Miller” – and believe me, there are many more than I had any idea, we are not unique, being Millerites –
Nikki: No, we’re not. [Laughter.]
Colleen: But he said, “With every one of them, their definition of the gospel was, ‘Jesus is coming! Pack your bags!'” And I think of that when this kind of thing happens. That’s the fear that comes up, that’s the fear this former Adventist was explaining to me.
Nikki: Do you remember when those flash mobs were really popular?
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: People would get together, and they’d do – there was a video online of an Adventist group who went to, I don’t know, I think it was Universal Studios, and they did a flash mob, and they chanted, “Jesus is coming, are you ready? Jesus is coming, are you ready?” The swelling, repetitious, anxiety-producing chant. [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: I mean, it summarizes so well what kind of came up in me, and I think comes up in a lot of us, when we face these kind of really unprecedented, scary times.
Colleen: Yeah. And speaking of scary, I find that there’s kind of a two-pronged fear, at least for former Adventists, at least I sense it. Now, I may be somewhat unique in this. It may be partly the way I was raised or the generation I grew up in, but you know, if you can picture a fork with only two prongs, I see two prongs that seem unrelated, but they actually join together into one thing, which is Adventist eschatology. One is this whole Sabbath fear –
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: – and “Am I doing right, am I showing my loyalty, am I on the right side of this?” And the other is, “Am I living right, am I making the right decisions, am I healthy, am I learning to eat edible plants so that I will not be starving in the time of trouble when, of course, I can’t eat meat?”
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Parenthetically, I remember years ago, when we lived in another house, we had a yard that was not well landscaped, and we had some visitors over, and the yard was not mowed. And when we walked out of the house, this young Adventist man said to us – and he was dead serious – “By the way, you have many edible plants in your yard.” [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: These were weeds! [Laughter.] That was part of the Adventist package. We had to keep the Sabbath, and we had to know how to find edible plants so that when we ran to the hills to escape those who were persecuting us for being Sabbath-keepers, we would know what to eat. And I find that fear to be triggered by this particular viral scare as well because, for example, yesterday I ventured out, even though I am in my 60s, I ventured out to find eggs, which I couldn’t find in the stores here in our area. I went into Trader Joe’s, and most of the frozen foods were gone, all of the eggs were gone, all of the dairy was gone, all of the peanut butter was gone, all the flour was gone, all the bread was gone, almost all of the salad mixes, the fresh vegetables that were precut, gone. And in the process of this I ran into a woman I did not know who started talking to me over our carts. And she was telling me, “Nobody knows how to prepare for this. They’re all stockpiling all this stuff. I told my husband last night that we need to get busy and plant our garden because I’ve always been self-sufficient. We need to just have our own vegetables and build our immune systems.” It came out that she was an Adventist, which was not a terrible surprise to me, and she identified which church she went to and informed me that she never takes a flu shot because she has such a strong immune system, and she capitalizes on berries and fresh vegetables. Well, you know, our conversation ended before too long, but it brought all of that back. Here she was, looking for vegetables and fruits and informing me that she had cured her kidney failure by ceasing to eat meat. And I just – now, talk about a triggering conversation.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: It was interesting because there’s that second prong on that fork.
Nikki: Yeah, it definitely is. I can’t tell you how many times I have watched Adventists try to cure deadly diseases with health. I remember a woman in our local church who had, I think, maybe early stage colon cancer when she was diagnosed –
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Nikki: – and refused treatment and was going to take care of it with diet.
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Nikki: And over a period of months, we watched her die, and she left behind two kids.
Colleen: Oh, that’s so sad.
Nikki: I know, I have relatives who’ve passed away from diseases and on their deathbed, one in particular, he was very upset because he had lived a life of exercise and clean eating, and why did he get cancer? Why was it killing him?
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: I didn’t read Ellen White, but that’s a big part of the Adventist experience, at least in some corners.
Colleen: Um-hmm. It does seem to be, and it seems to be part of the eschatological fear –
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: – you know, the end time thing. We’re going to flee to the hills to hide from those who are hunting us because we’re keeping Sabbath, and we’re going to have to know which plants to eat.
Nikki: I didn’t get to go to Pathfinders growing up, we moved so much, and so I wasn’t a part of Pathfinders, but I knew that my friends who went to Pathfinders knew what the plants were that we could eat –
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: – and so I always just knew, even in my 20s I had it in mind, I just need to stick close to the Adventists. They’ll tell me what I can eat because I didn’t know, I didn’t go to Pathfinders.
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: But yeah, that’s a big part of it. And I’m sitting here listening to this conversation we’re having, and I think about anyone who’s listening who has no idea what we’re talking about, they don’t come from an Adventist background.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: You know, when you think about it from their perspective, it’s got to sound –
Colleen: Whacky.
Nikki: – really pretty whacky. Yeah.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: And it’s easier for me, when I think about it that way, to see how brainwashed we were –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – and how cultic the group is.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: Because this isn’t something that I think the average Christian can listen to and go, “Oh, yeah, I’m tracking.”
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: I think there’s a lot of, “What?” you know, going on.
Colleen: I agree with you.
Nikki: The things about Adventism that the world looks at and says, “Hey, that’s a good part, that’s a good thing that they do.” You know, “They’re healthy” –
Colleen: Oh. Um-hmm.
Nikki: – “They eat fresh vegetables. They eat berries. They care about that kind of stuff.” The big concern, I think, that we’re talking about here isn’t eating healthy foods.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: The concern is the reason –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – and the arrogance and the fact that it’s relying on works, honestly, for salvation because I know Ellen White said, “If you eat animal flesh, you cannot be translated.”
Colleen: She did say that, absolutely.
Nikki: Translated meaning, like, taken to heaven. That sounds so Star Treky to me.
Colleen: Right. Yeah.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Without seeing death first. So here, facing this virus, all of those fears are kicking in for those with Adventist triggers as well because “What if this is ushering in the end times?” I used to think, and I’ve heard people say, “What if this is ushering in the end times? I’d better get my diet fixed so I don’t die in this disease, and I’d better get my Sabbath-keeping right so I’m showing I’m loyal and worthy of salvation.”
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: You know, all of this is making me think that living on this side of knowing the gospel and being born again, it looks so different to me. Yes, all the events are going to be the same, whether a person is an Adventist or a Christian or a complete unbeliever, but the fact is, reality hasn’t shifted. It’s a matter of learning what’s real. Jesus has told us what to expect. He doesn’t give us details, but He’s told us we can expect terrible times. Matthew 24 is filled with “There are going to be earthquakes and wars and rumors of wars and pestilences in divers places,” as the King James said. I think that was the version I memorized the memory verse in.
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Well, this is a pestilence. I mean, this is a pretty scary, multinational, kind of worldwide event. And it does feel eschatological, but we can know we were told to expect these things.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: And so how do we live, knowing that God is on His throne and that we’re alive in Christ? For me, one of the things that has come back to my mind several times is Matthew 6:25-34. It’s an amazing passage where Jesus Himself is saying, “Don’t worry about what you’ll eat or what you’ll drink or what you’ll wear.” Now, let’s just think for a minute in modern terms of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. These are the bottom line basis of the needs for just support, sustenance, and living that you have to have met in your life beginning as an infant, and if these things are not met in your life, you always sort of have a lingering fear that they won’t be there. But Jesus is saying these most basic needs for life, God knows you need them. And He will provide them, just seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. He even says the Gentiles worry about these things. You’re not supposed to. So what’s a Gentile in that context?
Nikki: It’s an unbeliever.
Colleen: Yeah, absolutely. Um-hmm.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Absolutely. An unbeliever worries about these things. So I go into the store and see the shelves empty and realize people are stockpiling bread, toilet paper, hand sanitizer, flour, you know, all the staples of life, and I’m thinking, “That’s fear talking.” God knows what we need, and then He uses the example: Even the lilies of the field, you know, which are so beautiful, they don’t do anything to make themselves beautiful. God clothes them. God provides for even the grass, which dies away and withers up at the end of the season. Yet God provides even for the grass. So how much more is He going to provide for you? And I just know that back in 2006, when Richard was fired from Loma Linda because of working with this ministry, that was the text that was in my mind for months. And in ways I can’t even explain, the Lord did provide for us. He did. And we’ve never gone without what we needed. I can’t say how that always happens, and sometimes He does impress us to get things in advance or to have things on hand. It’s not a sin to do that, but the fear is not warranted, because we have a Father.
Nikki: That passage, that’s family language. I’ve heard people say that worry is a sin. Maybe I have to grow more, but I struggle with that one a little bit. I would argue that unbelief is a sin.
Colleen: Um-hmm. Yes.
Nikki: I think worry is a natural human emotion, and I think God knows that and that He – I think that’s why He says to us, “Don’t worry. I’ll take care of you.” I mean, that’s what I say to my kids, “Don’t worry. We’ve got you; we’re going to take care of you.” And it’s in knowing who He is and what He’s promised –
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: – that we’re able to enter into that rest that He has us. It really does resolve the parts of us that aren’t focusing on what we know is true about God.
Colleen: I liked what you said earlier, Nikki, about the fact that none of this stuff is a surprise to God. He leads us as we go into these things, and it makes me think of the disciples on the boat, where Jesus said, “Take this boat, cross the lake. I’ll meet you on the other side.” And on the way this horrific, life-threatening storm came up, and Jesus walked out on the water, calmed the storm, and they went to the other side, and He immediately got them there. They were in God’s will, doing what He asked them to do, when that storm came up. That storm was His design to teach them who He was. We’re alive now, we’re here in 2020, living through a pandemic that threatens a certain portion of the population quite severely, a portion which a lot of my loved ones are in, older or immune-compromised or have underlying health issues, but here we are. And He’s with us, walking us into this. It’s His will that we trust Him in this.
Nikki: Yeah, and because He’s who He is and because He’s our Father, we can take even this situation as if we’re taking it right from His hands.
Colleen: And we can know we don’t have to fear because He keeps His promises. That’s been the huge learning curve for me. He keeps His promises, and that’s the reason He asks us not to be anxious. That’s the reason.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: For example, Philippians 4:6-8 is a passage that I come back to so often: “Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” And I remember it was in 2011 when I was facing a possible diagnosis of breast cancer, and it was this passage that carried me through. It wasn’t because God promised my health would be okay, but I realized He was asking me to thank Him for Him, thank Him for what He was doing that I couldn’t see, thank Him that He keeps His promises, and if He doesn’t keep His promises, there is no basis on which He can ask us to trust Him. That would just be brave talk in a dark night. But He asks us not to be anxious because He keeps His promises. And He asks us to thank Him, and I find it really interesting that the thanks is a part of making our requests known.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: It’s a repeated command in both testaments, and interestingly, in Romans 1, where Paul writes about the people who have stifled their knowledge of God in their wickedness and have turned and worshipped the created things instead of the Creator, he identifies them in verses 18-21. He identifies them as people who have not honored God as God and refused to give thanks. Those two things are the things that define people who turn away from God, refuse to acknowledge Him, and have futile thinking and depraved minds. Isn’t that an amazing thing?
Nikki: Yeah, and it’s by acknowledging God as God and thanking Him, I don’t know, it preserves us from the idolatry that comes from ignoring Him. I think of these people who just strive after the pride of life and the things the world tells us we need, and I think that’s part of the panic that we see coming out of these hoarding shopping trips and, you know, all the things they’re going to need and just not trusting a good God and thanking Him for what He’s giving you. I know it sounds strange, but this whole experience has caused me to be just far more grateful for things that it didn’t even occur to me to thank God for because we can see all of His provision for us in the face of all of that threat of loss that the world is talking about and experiencing.
Colleen: You know, one of the areas where I’ve seen something in a new light just in the last week, it’s nothing I haven’t known about, but I have experienced it in a deeper way, and that is the reality of the local body of Christ that God puts us in. It was very sad and moving to experience church online on Sunday –
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: – without sitting next to my fellow brothers and sisters, without seeing them and giving them hugs, which I missed doing terribly. I love the people I worship with. But still, to be in my living room, watching the livestream, singing along, and knowing I’m singing along with most of my fellow church members in our own living rooms –
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: – was very moving to me.
Nikki: Yeah! I was in tears. It was incredibly moving, and not just our local church body, but knowing that the body of Christ all over the place was quarantined and worshipping together online, I went and I listened to several other sermons from different churches on Sunday, and we as a body of Christ were praising God and thanking God and worshipping Him and in His Word altogether in our separate homes, and there was just something really moving, yeah, about that.
Colleen: So as you contemplate this and realize that we’re stuck, kind of, in our individual homes pretty much, with limited going out, what do you see as a way to face this kind of crisis now? I mean, the focus, different from Adventism, is not “What should I be doing to fix myself?”
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: What do you see now as the way you face this crisis? What comes to your mind?
Nikki: One of the things that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately and feeling convicted about is that, to my memory, we have never had a larger, more captive audience who’s contemplating their mortality and quarantined in their homes, rushing to social media for hope and answers –
Colleen: Interesting.
Nikki: – and I feel kind of the weight of that, the opportunity that we have right now to model the kind of hope and trust and rest that comes from knowing God, and our opportunity to share the gospel and Scripture in virtual platforms, and I don’t know, to be a place where God is magnified in the middle of something this scary, I think is a big opportunity.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: I keep thinking about the fact that there are people right now who will succumb to this virus –
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: – who may be watching online and have the opportunity to be exposed to truth from the people of God, and I feel the weight, I guess, of that potential.
Colleen: That’s really interesting and significant. You’re right about that. It reminds me of a quote I heard Gary Inrig say in his sermon Sunday from Powlison. It was, “Fear is a view of the future that doesn’t take into account the sovereignty of a good God.” This is what we have to let people know.
Nikki: Yeah. We have to let them know that we know a sovereign – the sovereign God and that He has complete control over this. That makes me think of there was a blog that I read. I really enjoy reading a woman named Vaneetha Rendall Risner. She wrote a piece this week entitled, “Will We Live Out All our Days?” And she talks about the sovereignty of God. I’d recommend you to look it up if you guys haven’t read that. And she encourages us with the fact that, yes, we absolutely will live out our days because God has numbered every single one of them, and we will not go before He takes us and before He’s purposed it, and one of the quotes that she uses is from Sproul, and Sproul said, “If there is one maverick molecule in all the universe, then God is not sovereign. And if God is not sovereign, He is not God.”
Colleen: Wow.
Nikki: And so, knowing that we can be confident in the fact that God has control over every molecule. Carel will often quote – I don’t remember who it was that said it, but that God is sovereign even over the dust motes.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Nothing’s going to come to us without Him purposing for us to walk through it, and He’s not going to make us walk through it alone.
Colleen: That’s true.
Nikki: And you know, we’re commanded to do everything to the glory of God, even be quarantined to the glory of God. And so by resting in that sovereignty and by magnifying God – and I’m not talking about “fake it ’til you make it,” “say the right thing,” you know, “polish yourself up for a watching community.”
Colleen: No.
Nikki: I’m talking about be vulnerable, be honest. Be open about the fact that, yeah, this is a serious time, and this is scary, but this is what I know is true. Be willing to be rejected by people if they don’t like your message, but know that God will not leave it useless. I’ve been thinking about what our impact will be.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: You know, are we adding unnecessary angst –
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: – or are we offering truth? That’s one of the things that I’ve thought about, about how we walk through this.
Colleen: Yeah.
Nikki: And the other part of that is yes, we have a captive audience made up of probably a lot of unbelievers, but we also have the church, the body of Christ. While we’re commanded to fellowship and to not fail to gather together, we’re also commanded to obey those in authority over us. And so there are creative ways that we can come around each other as the body of Christ, like you mentioned, the livestreaming churches, and check in with each other. I’m a pretty hardcore introvert [laughter] –
Colleen: [Laughter.] Yeah, me too.
Nikki: – and I keep seeing these comments on Facebook that say things like, “Hey, introverts, check in on your extroverted friends. This is not easy for us.” And that is absolutely a way that we can love our brothers and sisters in Christ. Check in on them, make sure they’re okay. Pray with them. Read Scripture with them, and we can be creative. There are platforms for virtual meetings where you can see each other. And Colleen, you had a story too recently, one of the ways you reached out to someone.
Colleen: There is a – well, I’ll call them elderly, even though they’re very spritely, but there is a couple that I’m sure is well into their 80s who actually sent us a letter in the mail. How odd is that these days? It was a letter that they wanted to share with us because they were talking about a letter, they were sharing a letter they had written to a family member, and they knew we had prayed for them. And this letter came on Saturday, this last Saturday. And I suddenly realized – I realized we were walking into a Sunday with no church where we would be normally meeting with the full body of Christ, and I said to Richard, I’m going to make sure that I keep some kind of communication open with this couple, who I won’t be able to personally see for an undetermined amount of time. I actually a wrote a letter – not by hand, I admit, because who can read my handwriting?
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: I did type up a letter and print it out and am mailing it by snail mail, and I said to them, “I want to make sure we have a way to communicate during this time when we will not be seeing each other,” and after all, they had sent mea letter. So I’m sending them a snail mail letter, with the promise that I could send more, you know, if they want that. So it’s not something I would normally do. I would normally just email, but it was important enough to them to send this, and since I can’t see them, I’m thinking, “You know what? They’re at that age where a snail mail letter means something.” It’s kind of my commitment, to keep that line of communication open, if they would like that.
Nikki: I see that. I see that coming up in conversations that people are having about coronavirus, at least among believers. People are getting creative about how they can love one another, you know, whether it’s writing letters like that or just being available to text or to take a call. We live in a society where not everybody picks up the phone all the time. This whole situation is kind of shifting; at least it appears to be shifting the willingness for people to be available to each other and to love each other.
Colleen: At least it’s shifting in my head, yeah.
Nikki: It’s definitely shifting in my head, but I’m seeing it around me too, and we may not be able to eliminate this virus.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: But we already know that our battle isn’t against the physical –
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: – and so we pray. I mean, we have more ability to make an impact on this than any other people group –
Colleen: That’s right.
Nikki: – because we’re God’s people, and we can pray, and oh, I’m so grateful for the sermon that Pastor Gary preached on Sunday. It’s at Redeemer Fellowship if you guys want to look it up. He talked about David, and he talked about how he was kind of at the bottom of his fear and anxiety. He had just pretended to be insane to get himself out of a scary situation. He was at a low point, and he prayed, and he ends up writing this psalm, rejoicing God for rescuing him, and he was still being hunted by Saul, he wasn’t – his circumstance hadn’t changed –
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: – but God’s interaction with him had somehow rescued him from his internal experience. And so while we can’t change this pandemic, and we can’t change our situation, those of us who are quarantined –
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: – we can pray, and we can pray for God to root us in truth and affect our internal experience and the internal experience of our brothers and sisters all over the world who are in similar situations.
Colleen: That’s a great, great point. One of the passages that helps me when I start to think through these things and fear for the immediate future: “What if my husband gets this virus and it develops into pneumonia,” because he’s had pneumonia before, you know, the fear starts. But the center of Psalm 139 is something I come back to over and over again because it tells me the truth, and this is what it said, verses 13-16. And this is David, that same David that God rescued from his own internal condition. He says this, “For you formed my inward parts; you wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are your works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.” That is so reassuring to me.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: No virus can take me out prematurely. God knows my days, and if I trust Him, if I know Him, even if this is the end of my days, I’m safe with Him, it’s not the end of me.
Nikki: Right.
Colleen: I do not go into oblivion. But He will not take me out; He will not allow anything to take me out before it’s His time, not even the coronavirus.
Nikki: That makes me think of 2 Timothy 4:18. Even if it is our time, God is going to bring us home safely to Him. And that’s the difference.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: That’s the difference, knowing God, being a believer and being an Adventist, you know?
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: I didn’t have that assurance that if whatever circumstance we were facing was going to take us out, I didn’t believe I was necessarily going to be brought home, and we have that promise, that He will take us home safely to Him when it’s our time.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And we know from, you know, was it Psalm 116 or – it says that “Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints.”
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: We know that He values even that moment when He does take us home, it’s precious to Him.
Colleen: Isn’t that something? It’s such a different way to look at it. It’s not a metaphor, like – you know I had no idea as an Adventist how to understand “Precious to the Lord is the death of His saints.” It was just metaphor.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: But it’s actual, it’s literally true. If it’s our time, because the Lord has determined it in advance, that’ll be precious because He will take us to Himself. It’s really a completely different way to look at it. I am not having to look at this crisis in the world as the possibility that I may now have to flee to the hills to protect myself.
Nikki: Right.
Colleen: God is in charge of me, not the virus, not the world, not Satan. I’m not protecting and defending myself against Satan’s darts. It’s God who does that. But at the same time, I pray, I reach out to my brothers and sisters, and I know that whatever is going to happen to me is – the Lord is in charge, and I will have what I need all along the way through this entire unknown future because He has promised to provide it, and He keeps His promises.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: My friend Beverly Bessada sent me a little meme this morning. When I woke up, there it was. It was just three little lines: peace over panic; faith over fear; wisdom over worry. And I want to say, I’ve got to define wisdom a little bit to know what that means. The Bible tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and when we fear the Lord and know that He is God, that He is sovereign over everything, that His word cannot fail, then we can know that what He has told us is true if we believe in His Son, who died to pay for the world’s sin. He took our sin into Himself and went to the cross and became the propitiation for our sins. If we believe that, believing that He was buried and was raised on the third day according to Scripture, for our eternal life, that is wisdom; that is the thing that makes all the difference between living in panic and fear and walking through this knowing that we’re not walking alone and that our future is not random.
Nikki: And when we know for certain that when the time comes for us to go home and be with the Lord, it frees us up to respond differently in our homes with our families.
Colleen: Good point.
Nikki: It was very commonplace for – not just in the home, but at church gatherings, for people to catastrophize, to talk about, you know, “Oh, this is terrible, this was predicted, this is what’s going to happen, you know, we need to fight for our freedom.” There was a lot of rallying fears. Kids were exposed to that, and it was normal. It was almost a mark of being the remnant.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: It was an identity, it was an identity. And we don’t have to worry about any of that kind of stuff now. We know what’s true. I have been convicted through this time – you know, my kids are out of school, and they’re here with me – that it’s how I respond to this is going to impact them. Being able to trust God, being able to trust that this is all a part of His plan, being able to trust that if it’s my time to go, He’s going to take me, it frees me up to care about my impact on my children, to think about what I’m teaching them. It helps me see that my responsibility right now is not to broadcast my fears in front of my children, but to protect them from that. That’s not theirs to carry. It’s an opportunity to talk to them about who God is and how He cares for us and how He has this and what it looks like to trust Him, because I’m not always going to be here, and there will be times in the future where they will face scary things, and I want them to learn how to walk through that. And so when we understand that our days are numbered and that our end will not come until God decides that it’s coming –
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Nikki: – we’re able to be more intentional about how we live those days and to put our minds on the things that God wants them on rather than all of the “how do I eat right,” “how do I protect myself from this.” And that’s not to be disparaging about making good choices. Ironically for me, good choices means staying far away from veggie meats –
Colleen: Yes. [Laughter.]
Nikki: – and eating healthy animal protein, doctor’s orders.
Colleen: I just think of what a difference in my young life it would have made if my mother had been able to understand what you’re saying, during that Cuban Missile Crisis and other times as well. Her fear is still impacting to me as I look back on that. And it was – she didn’t know to express the kinds of things you’re talking about. It makes allthe difference.
Nikki: It models a foundation in Christ. And I’m not talking – again, I’m not talking about “fake it ’til you make it,” “put a smile on and tell your kids everything’s perfect,”
Colleen: Oh, no.
Nikki: Because the kids aren’t stupid. Human emotion is human emotion.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: If you’re worried and they see that, it’s right to tell them, “Yeah, this is a serious event. Let’s pray. Let’s pray for our community.”
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: “Let’s pray for our loved ones, and let’s trust God through this.” And giving them reality rather than all of the catastrophizing, “What does this really mean?” “What’s really happening?”
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: And there are plenty of opportunities for that because, frankly, we live in a society where people are not trustworthy, especially politicians.
Colleen: That’s true. [Laughter.] Yeah.
Nikki: So you know, there’s a lot of opportunity to worry and wonder and speculate, but protecting the kids from that, that’s not something I saw happen a lot in Adventism, and it’s a way that we can love our children and really make the most of this time here together in a quarantine, trusting God together as a family, yeah.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: For those who haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about the attributes of God –
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: – I would strongly recommend if you’re quarantined and you’re looking for something to read, go pick up or order J.I Packer’s book, “Knowing God.” That’s a great one. Or you know, read Job 38 or Psalm 91.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: Scripture is very clear, God is sovereign over all of these things, and we can trust Him.
Colleen: And another thing you can do, once you read those, is go through the Gospel of John.
Nikki: Yes.
Colleen: It is astonishing to discover how Jesus is God and how much we know about God, His justice, His mercy, and His faithfulness through understanding who Jesus is, that He is God. So, there’s plenty to read and some great things you can do during this enforced time of social distancing. As we conclude this podcast, our first one done remote from each other, I just want to remind all of you, if you haven’t trusted Jesus, we ask that you consider doing that now. Get out that Gospel of John, look at what he says in John 6:29, that the work of God is to believe the One whom He sent. The work of God is not to figure out which are the edible plants and to get out there and make sure you’re keeping Sabbath. The work of God is to trust Jesus, who has fulfilled all of the law, and in Him we’re safe and secure forever.
Nikki: So if you have any questions or comments for us, please write us at formeradventist@gmail.com, and we’d love to hear if you want to share what this experience has been like for you, as you’ve thought about this, or what this has brought up in you. We are not as terminally unique as we like to think we are –
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: – so share your story with us, write us and ask us any questions that you’d like to. Also, go to proclamationmagazine.com. You can sign up for our weekly emails, our weekly blogs. So we would love for you also to follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. And in the meantime, we’re praying for you, and know that you’re not alone in this.
Colleen: It’s been fun doing this first remote podcast with you, Nikki. I miss having you here.
Nikki: Yes.
Colleen: But your mug is nice –
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: – and it’s good to talk to you.
Nikki: You too. Bye.
Colleen: Bye.
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