One of the many blessings I’ve been thanking God for during this season of unknowns and quarantine mandates has been the unexpected time I’ve had with my husband to discuss the faithfulness of God. There’s nothing like a pandemic to bring the most important truths in one’s life to the surface. Carel’s faith and convictions have been a stabilizing source of hope for the kids and me as he’s shared with us the absolute truths about God that will sustain us even in this.
One afternoon last week as we had yet another conversation about God’s care for us I asked Carel if he would be willing to let me interview him for my blog. With nowhere else to run, he graciously agreed!
Carel is a board member for Life Assurance Ministries, and he serves as an elder at our local church, Redeemer Fellowship, in Loma Linda, CA. Carel’s trust in God’s inerrant Word has been a tremendous blessing in our home and family. His courage to lead us, even when challenged, has brought our family into blessed places under the hand of our Good Father who, while He gives and takes away, is blessed above all.
Listen in as Carel shares with us how understanding the sovereign care of our loving Father has impacted his life in various ways, including his understanding of salvation, his experience with sanctification, how he deals with Adventist family, or how he has faced studying difficult doctrines.
Nikki: Before we talk about how you’ve come to understand God now, tell us a little about your view of Him in Adventism. What did you understand about the attributes of God?
Carel: I would say that my understanding of God was pretty much in line with how Ellen White described Satan’s view of Him. I understood Him as asking too much of us. I saw Him asking for perfection, something I knew I couldn’t do, and I legitimately had never met or seen anybody, even among those who claimed to be living holy, live up to this perfection either. As a pastor’s kid I would see behind the curtain enough to know that if someone claimed perfection they were lying. I thought that God was someone who had set up a construct of rules that we couldn’t keep, but that we had to keep in order to be savable.
Nikki: So you thought of Him as a God who set us up to fail.
Carel: Yeah, it’s reminiscent of the account of Satan saying to Eve, “Did God really say?” and then twisting what God had said to bring up a question in her about Him. I feel like I was raised with this twisted concept of God.
I saw Him as very human in His god-ness. In other words, I absolutely had no question that the plan of salvation was plan B. We, humanity, had screwed up in the garden and He had to sort of pivot and come up with a plan.
I remember even feeling like I understood, a little bit, why Satan got mad at God for His unattainable standard.
Also, I saw Jesus as weak. So— I was always told as a pastor’s kid to be a good example for the other kids and I very much felt like that’s what Jesus came to do for us. He came, as God’s Son, and set us a really good example!
I just had no picture of God’s overall plan.
Nikki: As a pastor’s kid, were you ever taught the attributes of God, the incommunicable and communicable attributes?
Carel: No.
Nikki: So those are terms you didn’t even hear in Adventism— even as a pastor’s kid?
Carel: I had heard terms like omnipresence and omniscience. I had heard some of the “omnies” as a pastor’s kid but one of the reasons was because I was taught that when Jesus took a body He was no longer omnipresent which is why He had to send the Holy Spirit after He left. I heard about these attributes in the context of Jesus not having them because of the incarnation.
Nikki: So what did you think about His omnipotence if you thought of Jesus as weak?
Carel: I never would have thought of Jesus as omnipotent. I would have thought of the Father as omnipotent, so Jesus could, through that power, do some of the miracles.
Nikki: So you separated the attributes. Some of the persons of the Trinity had some that others didn’t.
Carel: Yeah, and the Holy Spirit was a power, not a person. I wouldn’t have defined Him as a person.
So, honestly, the attributes of God were not something I thought about. I would have stared blankly at you if you had asked me about them as an Adventist, but now I can look back and assign what attributes I understood God as having or not having. They just weren’t something I ever contemplated because I didn’t have that framework.
Nikki: OK, so how did you think God could be known?
Carel: I thought you knew God by understanding Him. I thought of it as, the smarter you are, the more intellect you have and develop, the better you can understand God. It was like understanding and knowing calculus. There were facts and things you could know about God, and you got those facts from the Bible, all of Ellen White’s books, and from listening to your pastor.
Nikki: Does the God you know now resemble the God you knew in Adventism?
Carel: Not at all.
Nikki: How did your understanding of God change from this “twisted” concept of Him, as you put it, to how you understand Him now?
Carel: So, the shift in my view of Scripture has been very impacting. As I read the Bible and saw it as an inerrant account of history, for example, I saw how God worked with His people and with those who weren’t His people, and I came to see how all these accounts in human history were God-ordained events which He created and made happen. The Scriptures are more than just allegories and helpful ways of dealing with life. They help me know God and understand how He deals with people and what He wants me to understand about His master plan.
One of the great benefits for me was going through a teaching series, in a matter of a few weeks, that gave an overview of the entire Bible, Genesis through Revelation. It worked to help students see a “ribbon”—the continuous path and thought of God—through the whole Bible.
I know it’s understood that all of His different attributes are equally Him and important, but in my thinking, they all are kind of tied together in His Sovereignty, and that has been a significant change in my thinking about Him.
Nikki: As an Adventist when I heard that God was Sovereign, I thought that meant He sits on a throne and is beautiful. For someone who maybe hasn’t heard God’s sovereignty unpacked, how would you try to explain it?
Carel: Different communities of Christianity would define that a little bit differently, but what I believe the Bible teaches is that God is absolutely in control and has absolute authority. He has the right to create, to punish sin, to redeem the unrighteous; all things are His to choose and to do based on His free will. He truly is the Sovereign of the universe. I believe that everything is contained and happens within His authority and control. I believe that’s what the Bible teaches. I believe that when the Bible says that Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, that it means that before God created this planet, Jesus was already the One who would die for our sins, for our redemption.
Knowing that God is sovereign and that His sovereignty is governed by His goodness and love, allows believers to walk through events like this pandemic with hope. Those who do not understand God’s sovereignty will ultimately be left to ask where God is in the middle of things like this. As if they are without God in the world —because to believe that He has anything to do with it just is untenable for them.
I really appreciate this quote by Spurgeon, “Opposition to the divine sovereignty is essentially atheism. Men have no objection to a god who is really no God; I mean, by this, a god who shall be the subject of their caprice, who shall be a lackey to their will, who shall be under their control, –they have no objection to such a being as that; but a God who speaks, and it is done, who commands, and it stands fast, a God who has no respect for their persons, but doeth as He wills among the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of this lower world, such a God as this they cannot endure.”
Nikki: So, this is a very significant shift from your previous concept of God and His purposes. How do these changes affect how you view reality now?
Carel: The first thing it affected was my understanding of salvation. It brought me to understand that God is and always has been fully aware of all of my sin, and that He chose to redeem me before I was even born. I understood that He didn’t only forgive the sins I committed before I trusted Him and then leave me to do my best. When He forgave me He forgave me for every sin I would ever commit– and He CAN do that! He already knows the end from the beginning. He is sovereign over it. There was a huge peace for me in knowing that! I had been carrying a burden, under my previous understanding, believing that I would need to, on some level, if I was going to be saved, resolve and buckle down to be good enough. Having that burden taken off of me gave me the freedom to serve my Lord and rest in Him, grateful for what He’s done for me; it freed me to respond to Him. Not perfectly by any stretch.
It has also affected how I deal with the unknown and with suffering. I see God’s sovereignty and what Scripture says about His love and care for us as tremendous comfort. It can bring me, and others I deal with, comfort in knowing that God has “this”—whatever “this” is. It may very well be miserable, we might suffer, but He has clearly promised that He is working all of this for the good of those who love Him—and we know what the end game is. So, when things get ugly—and they really do—we can face them with full assurance; the full hope and certainty, that comes with trusting His heart. Spurgeon also said, and this may be a paraphrase, “When we cannot trace the hand of God in our circumstance, we can always trust His heart”.
Nikki: So you talked a lot about the security we have in our salvation and the fact that God is sovereign over our lives. Now, you know we get pushback in this ministry from people concerning the security of the believer and the fact that we no longer believe we are judged on the basis of our adherence to the Decalogue. Many of these people say that if we don’t believe we are judged on that basis then we may as well live however we want to. Or that if we think God is “controlling” us then there is no reason to try to be good.
Can you talk a little about how knowing the truths you’ve shared, and how being born again, have impacted your desire for holiness and sanctification in practical ways and in the various roles God has given you as husband, father, brother in the body of Christ, and in the world?
Carel: This is definitely one of the common push backs that we get in this ministry. It’s ironic that they call us lawless without the Mosaic law when for me, and for many of us, while living under that law our spiritual life was stagnant as opposed to now where we live free under the law of Christ but the ongoing work of sanctification in us never stops. As much as my life and my desires have changed, I sit here ten years out of Adventism and in Christ and there are many things that God is still putting in front of me to deal with. It’s not overwhelming in the hopeless way I felt as an Adventist, but the Lord continues to progress us in our sanctification in ways that He does differently for everybody. He continues to put things in front of me to deal with at the right time. I thank God that He didn’t put all of it in front of me at once. The idea that we as Christians who believe in the sovereign grace of God have just taken the position of, “OK, well, I’ve said a prayer and believed so now I can live however I want,” is just not the reality of the Christian life. Those I know, myself included, who are believers are continually convicted in life to do the next right thing that He puts in front of us.
Nikki: For the sake of those who don’t understand this, can you talk about what drives your desire to respond to the things that He puts in front of you? Why don’t you ignore them?
Carel: Him living in me. He does not let me have peace with my decisions to not obey. I’m not saying that I obey everything. I’m not saying that at all. I don’t want to paint that picture. Whether these changes are immediate or over time, He just keeps pushing. I like the way I’ve heard it put, “He doesn’t let us sin successfully forever if we are His.”
To be honest, I’m still trying to overwrite some of the old tapes in my head.
Nikki: How do you do that?
Carel: Just going back to His Word. Either texts that I remember or going back to a chapter that has been really significant to me. Honestly there are a couple that I go back to routinely. I find a lot of strength and reassurance in His word when He makes clear promises to me that He called me and He will glorify me. That’s an absolute promise. He doesn’t say that the path is going to be straight and easy.
How has this affected the roles God gave me? Well, I’ve seen my interactions with you change, my wife—and we’ve had a marriage! And it’s a marriage between two imperfect humans! I kind of chuckle sometimes remembering the Christmas we were asked to share our story at the Christmas Eve service. We were this new young shiny Christian couple that got up in front and talked about how amazing and perfect everything was! [Laughing]
Nikki: [Laughing] We definitely had a honeymoon phase after we were saved! That is true
Carel: Absolutely! And it was a great blessing to me later, when God began showing us where we needed to trust Him to work in our lives and marriage, that JI Packer, in the book Knowing God, identified that “pink cloud” that many believers experience, and he described how devastating it is when that season is over. It was normalizing, you know, because you get a little wobbly on your legs like, “What’s going on? What did I do wrong? Was it all untrue?” But Scripture steadies us with truth, and we persevere.
I’ve been trying to learn what it means when Paul tells us to love our wives as God loves the church. There again, it’s one of those things where my old tapes immediately want to reject the idea that this is even possible, but the new tapes I’ve been trying to put in with Scripture tell me that His standard for me can only be accomplished through His strength as He works through me— and I’ll take control back and take the reins back, like any wayward child, but He can slowly teach me how to trust Him in everything.
So, I’ve learned that I can love my wife in that kind of sacrificial way and that this doesn’t mean she will always be happy with me [Nikki: chuckling] and that is OK; in the same way that I can be angry with God and be upset that He is doing something in my life that I don’t see the point in or want but He is still loving me. So, loving my wife for God doesn’t always yield the results that peacekeeping will, but I’m learning to live out my marriage in truth and humility and I have watched it grow in God’s hands.
And then seeing how God has treated me has given me a picture of how I can love my children with grace. I am, in very imperfect ways, able to pass on to my children the ways He has dealt with me. Even as a believer I have seen myself fall but He has emotionally and spiritually picked me back up and has dusted me off and reassured me through Scripture that He knew it was going to happen before it happened, and that I never once- as big a blunder as it was- I never once stopped being His. And I’m able to pass that onto my children and love them in a very different way than what I felt as a child. I’m able to love them and reassure them and talk them through what mercy and grace mean. In my “sovereignty” as their father, I absolutely know— without knowing the details— that they’re going to be dishonest they’re going to make mistakes. And while knowing that already, I love them now, I’ll love them then. There is nothing that stops them from being mine or stops me from loving them.
Then, in the body of Christ, well, God living in me has given me the desire over the years to serve in ways that have really surprised me. He has given me a love and, for me, an unnatural graciousness with the people in my church that causes me to want to serve them and love them and look out for them. I have never felt anything quite like what it feels like to be directly involved in, and present with, people—whether it’s over a day, or a year, or a couple of years— transitioning from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of the Son. Seeing that transition is supernaturally awesome. There’s nothing like it. And to make sure you understand, I know that we have nothing to do with somebody being born again—at the very core of what happens there—but, being blessed to participate and serve Him by serving them in some way, pointing things out in Scripture, sharing things that meant something to us (not knowing what will take root or be left aside), that’s something that I never knew existed.
Nikki: And you were a leader in Adventism in various ways, as an elder, on counsels, and in Sabbath School.
Carel: Yes, I definitely served in Adventism as a boy and young man. But I didn’t even know it existed to see people changed like this.
Then in the world, well, the workplace is kind of my world. I don’t really do a lot other than home, workout, and work. Knowing that God knows what He’s doing with me and through me and trusting Him with that allows me to live where I don’t have to worry about representing a system to the world. I live bearing the name Christian, and that identity means I am among the imperfect but redeemed. It allows me the freedom to live honestly in front of others, as one who struggles like them but who has a Father who forgives and redeems. The people in my office and at the gym, people outside of my family and church, know that I’m a Christian, but they don’t see me as someone who claims to have it all together or who they can’t be themselves around. My faith is the moral compass that directs my decisions and how I want things handled at work and things I’m willing to do and not willing to do. And God has helped me talk about my faith with coworkers who have asked about it.
Nikki: Now, you have already shared with us that you were a pastor’s kid (PK). When a PK leaves Adventism they are often met with some unique challenges or dynamics. What would you say some of these dynamics are and what advice do you have for those in that situation?
Carel: Even within the subcategory of the pastor’s kids or the missionary’s kids, we all have different family structures and different pasts and our leaving will be handled differently.
There is definitely a struggle when having these conversations with your parents, no matter who you are, but when you are dealing with someone who because of their profession all the people in their circle look to them as a source of authority on the subject you disagree with them on, there is a level of assuredness and arrogance for them that honestly, I believe, is impossible for us to break through (and I don’t think we are all called to necessarily be the one to evangelize our parents). That is really all a work of God to do. When you have someone who is so assured of their own understanding, it’s not us who can break through that.
I think facing them comes down to the strength of your convictions. At the end of the day, if you’re still questioning whether or not you can tell your parents, or whomever, I would say, that’s OK, but you need to get into the word more and be convicted by God’s word. Because, in my experience, and among those I’ve talked to, once you get to that point, where you are convicted by God’s word and you know what He has said is true, the opinions of men become very small.
If whoever it is that holds that power over you were to tell you that it’s safe for you to go lie down in the street, you would have absolutely no problem looking them in the eye and telling them, “No, that’s not true. That’s not safe.” The doctrine of Adventism is telling you to go lay down in the street that leads to Hell. There’s absolutely no salvation in it.
So, no matter who it is you face, having certainty in what God’s word says, means that you can go and stand in front of them and speak truth. It was such a great thing to learn that Martin Luther said, when he stood before a counsel ready to condemn him, that unless he could be convinced that his convictions were wrong from God’s word alone then he could not recant.
Nikki: So what advice do you give to someone who senses this position of being looked down on within their family because of their convictions? What hope and encouragement can you offer them regarding their family?
Carel: The whole basis of what we’ve been talking about is God’s sovereignty. I truly believe that none, none that the Father has given to Christ will be lost. He draws them all. If we have the blessing of being used in that process, wonderful, but we don’t have to be balled up in fear that we might not say the right thing or wonder who will get through to them if we can’t. God used circumstances and different avenues of truth to get to me and He will do the same for everyone of us that He is calling.
It’s very frustrating! You know, you’ve got something so precious that someone needs so desperately—and it’s free! It’s absolutely free, and you feel like you have the exact process, you know the exact address of where this treasure is, and you can’t get them to look away from the shiny button that they’re treasuring. It’s a feeling of desperation, it’s like, “Dude! All you’ve gotta do is put that down and turn over here!” You know, you’re pulling your hair out and if you let yourself that’s a desperate road that many of us have gone down. The alternative is to rest and pray that God will show us what to say and what not to say and thank Him for being in control.
Nikki: So what would you say to someone who is regularly engaging in hostile and futile discussions with their family seemingly pushing their family further into Adventism?
Carel: Stop. I think we are told pretty clearly not to enter into vain debate. Christ told us not to throw our pearls before swine. He, at one point in His ministry, started teaching in parables. There’s a lot of precedence for us to be careful when we see somebody taking what we’re saying and twisting it, using it against God, blaspheming God. I think we have to be very, very careful. It’s very hard when we love them and we want them to find and have what we have to then know that the right thing to do is to step back. We don’t know what God is doing with them. Unfortunately many people have to reach a much more desperate place in their life before God decides to bring them to life.
Nikki: I know a lot of these debates we’re describing often result in people we love hurling oversimplified straw man arguments meant to discredit biblical teachings they disagree with. This can be very intimidating and create doubt when people haven’t really examined these topics. I think there’s often a stage in leaving Adventism when we begin to realize that we can learn the Bible without a seminary degree, but before that sometimes we shrink away from studying certain doctrines. I’ve heard new formers say they don’t even want to read certain books of the Bible like Daniel and Revelation, or they don’t want to know about last day events or the nature of life after death. What would you say to those who are afraid of dealing with these things?
Carel: So I talked to somebody at the last FAF conference about the second coming and he was saying that he wasn’t sure where he stood on that because he hadn’t studied it. He seemed a little disinterested or unsure about dealing with it.
So, Jesus held Jerusalem accountable for not recognizing Him when He came because if they had understood His word to them in the Torah and the prophets they would have seen the hundreds of prophecies that tell us who Jesus is and how to recognize Him. Also, there is as much said about His second coming in the Bible as any other topic, so it’s important to Him for us to know what He puts in Scripture for us to know. The economy of words in Scripture makes it very clear that He’s not putting a bunch of superfluous information in there trying to fill pages. So when He over and over refers to His second coming it’s important. In Thessalonians it indicates that even the very elect would be deceived by the man of lawlessness if it were possible. I believe that there is value in us understanding these truths as best we can, recognizing that there are really good theologians who value God’s word but disagree on some of the details.
In addition, it was incredibly important to me to study that particular subject because I had been raised with incredible fear of the second coming. The time of trouble, the tribulation, is the horror that you bring your kids up with in Adventism. Everytime I would hear about the martyrdom we would have to endure…it— it was horrible! So, for me to understand that what I believe the Bible says is that we as believers will not have to endure a time of tribulation like that gave me so much peace and joy. And when you understand, wrapped into that—one of my other favorite topics— the security of the believer, then whether or not we have to endure a tribulation I can know that those who are His will not be lost because of those things. The idea of your kids, your parents, your loved ones, being killed during that time has honestly lost its power over me because I know where all those who belong to God are going. It might sound a little weird, but I would much rather my kids be taken early on and not have to see the rest of a tribulation, so life after death tied in with the security— they’re just all tied together and it’s hard to talk about one without the other. For me, it’s so simple. Some of the most simple sentences in the Bible clear up our former false doctrines.
Nikki: So, related to this, as we wrap up this conversation, we are living in a time now when we are all in quarantine and reading headlines all over the internet with people talking about the signs of the end times, the mark of the beast, martial law, one world order, vaccine conspiracies, etc. There are some former Adventists who are having what I would consider PTSD-like reactions to these headlines—even if they would never consider rethinking Adventism—and it makes sense after growing up in a religion that, as you put it so well, horrified it’s people with these wild tales of torture for Sabbath keeping. So what words of comfort and advice would you give to them in light of everything we’ve just discussed and what would you say to them about what they’re setting their mind on?
Carel: I would say that when we consider the attributes of God, when we consider the magnitude, the bigness, the awesomeness of God—His holiness, His love, His mercy—and when we, as best as our sinful hearts can, truly understand the sinfulness of sin, and the righteous wrath of God against our sin, when we really understand that, and we understand that THIS sin virus has infected ALL of us, and 100% of humanity, without God’s grace, will go to Hell—is separated from God— and we know that God interjected Himself into our planet and gave the cure on the cross for this global corruption that’s not just thousands of people dying—everyone will die because of sin—and that He took care of that. He died for us. It’s finished. Honestly, I think if we really ponder that, if we really sit with that, we’ll realize that Covid-19 is small potatoes. It’s hard when you’re in it. It’s hard to be sick. It’s hard to see loved ones die. It’s hard to maybe lose your job, or maybe you’re gonna lose your house. There’s all sorts of horrible things that are happening to various people. But at least for me, when I try to stand back and put it in perspective, if I look at what He has done for us, and if He did that—if He took care of our sin problem to where we don’t have to die and go to Hell, we get to die and go to be with Him—if He did that, He gave His Son for that, seeing us through something like this? Of course He’ll do it. Of course He’ll do the small thing when He did the big thing.
As for those who are getting lost in the conspiracies and predictions—when Jacob left Laban with his wives, Rachel left with her family idols tucked into her baggage. I believe that many of us leave Adventism dragging some of the idols along with us “just in case”. If you are being triggered by those old tapes of fear producing future telling, I think it’s a wonderful opportunity, a wonderful blessing that God is prompting you to get back into His word and to look at His promises and to study about last day events. Use this time locked up to see what He really says about His provision. About what His plans are for us. I remember when, after some years of thinking my mom had dealt completely with the Sabbath I was talking to her and she said, “Well, you know, we kind of do this and that and are careful on the Sabbath, you know, just in case.” It was sad to me to think that she was still figuratively reaching out to Jesus while holding one hand behind her back for the sabbath—especially when salvation is all about the object of your faith.
Nikki: So, is there any last thought you want to leave us with?
Carel: I would say, just put yourself under God’s word. Make the Lord Jesus the One you are making the object of your faith and keep walking with, in, and towards Him. Don’t be caught up by measuring sticks, whether it’s measuring yourself against where you think you should be or the guy standing next to you. Just keep looking at Jesus and going in that direction and submitting to His Word and He will lead you where He intends for you to walk. This is easier said than done, but as you walk towards Him and you stumble, or you get distracted and you look over here or over there, as soon as you recognize what the issue is, regroup and keep walking, because He is probably the One who got your attention back.
If you’re afraid of studying books or topics of Scripture, doctrinal issues, consider your Adventist family that doesn’t want to hear or look at things, and understand that that’s what you’re doing. Consider where you would be if you had been unwilling to look at Jesus. Jesus is the primary doctrine for us, we are Christians, if we hadn’t been willing to look at Christ again and see that the Christ is different from the one we thought we knew—if we hadn’t been willing to take that step, we’d still be lost in Adventism, agnosticism, atheism, or wherever it was that He sovereignty found you.
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