The seventh annual Former Adventist Fellowship conference is over. This past weekend created memories of moving worship, clear teaching, and warm fellowship. Punctuating everything, however, was the palpable love for us “formers” that flowed out of our keynote speaker Phil Bubar. None of us will forget the moment he stopped speaking as his eyes welled up, his voice broke, and he said, “I’m so sad for Adventists. They are lost, and they don’t know it.”
Phil understands us. Oh, he doesn’t “get” all the convoluted arguments and confusing beliefs we’re unpacking, but he understands our pain and our newfound joy in Jesus. Phil understands why we can’t just quietly leave and pretend our past is merely a distant memory.
A repeated theme in the letters we receive at Life Assurance Ministries is: “If you don’t want to be Adventists anymore, why don’t you just leave and quit bashing Adventism?” Another related comment is: “Stop sending Proclamation! magazine; what gives you the nerve to send us something we don’t want and didn’t ask for?!”
I’ll address both questions with a metaphor. Suppose you’re taking a road trip, driving on a somewhat isolated road, and you approach a bridge spanning a swift river flowing hundreds of feet below you in a steep canyon. Just as you approach the bridge, you notice with horror that a huge section of the road is missing right over the center of the river. There is no warning sign, and there are no barriers barring access to the bridge.
You slam on your brakes; just seconds longer, and you would have plunged headlong to your death. Scrambling out of the car, you wave frantically at another vehicle approaching the bridge, hoping to stop him before he races toward his death.
The other driver skids to a stop, and when he sees the gaping hole in the bridge, he joins you in warning other drivers. Between approaching cars, he finds paper and markers in his car, and the two of you begin making signs which you post on tree trunks several yards down the road.
You would warn other drivers if the bridge ahead were out—wouldn’t you? Or would you just be thankful that you escaped death, do a U-turn, and drive off the scene never to be heard from again? Would you be able to live with yourself if you knew countless people would plunge to their deaths because you didn’t warn them in some way?
The bridge is out
Adventism is the bridge that is out. In fact, it’s not just broken; it’s a mirage. It has never spanned the river.
Unsuspecting people think Adventism is “just another Christian church” that happens to meet on Saturday. It hooks those who are not biblically grounded and robs them of joy and security. Moreover, it suffocates its life-long members, offering a counterfeit gospel but calling it the “real deal”. The Adventist Jesus is not the Jesus of Scripture. The Adventist Trinity is not the biblical Three-in-One. Adventist soteriology is not complete; the Adventist Jesus did not finish the atonement on the cross nor complete our salvation with His resurrection.
The Adventist human is merely a body plus breath, or life-force, that goes into the grave upon death awaiting re-creation, not true resurrection. The Adventist human has no spirit that survives the body, so Adventists cannot comprehend the biblical revelation of the new birth.
Perhaps most shocking of all, though, is the fact that Adventism makes Satan the final sin-bearer. Oh, I know the arguments: Satan doesn’t bear our sins. Yet Ellen White says he does, and Adventists everywhere believe that Satan will bear the blame and the punishment for causing human sin. Jesus places the sins of the saved on Satan, and he bears them out of heaven into the lake of fire, thus cleansing heaven.
This belief is heresy! Jesus is the only One who ever bears human sin. He’s the only One who takes the punishment for sin and who bears our sin as far away as east is from the west.
Satan hides at the very core of Adventism. We who have left Adventism for the sake of Jesus and His finished work cannot be silent. We must warn those we love: there is no bridge! Stop before it’s too late and you plunge to your death!
Oh, one more thing: I find it incredibly ironic that Adventists are upset that people receive Proclamation! without requesting it. Adventists specialize in mailing and otherwise distributing literature, Conflict of the Ages books, and Revelation Seminar advertisements to entire zip code areas—all without anyone requesting those things.
We former Adventists who have found Jesus are not bitter people spending our energy to bash and discredit our former church. On the contrary, we love Adventists; we shared that identity!
We want our Adventist loved ones to know and trust the real Jesus. We want them to find stability and eternal security on the cross of the Lord Jesus and in His empty tomb. We want to rescue them from entrusting themselves to that chimera that only appears to be a bridge.
“I am the Way,” Jesus said. “Whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life” (Jn. 14:6; 5:24).
The bridge of Adventism is out—turn aside before it’s too late!
And when you turn aside, the Way will become clear; the cross will get you safely to the other side.
- April 20–26, 2024 - April 18, 2024
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Very well stated Colleen. Contrary to the claims of many SDAs that we former SDAs must have become embittered or suffered some scorn or slight. A scorned man does not come back to the group to warn those who scorned him about disaster. Rather this is the action of someone who loves them dearly.
Your ministry is very important, and I am blessed by Proclamation. But I can’t go as far as to say that Adventism has Satan at its core. I believe God can redeem anyone, anywhere. There are countless people in Adventism who believe they’re following Jesus Christ with their whole heart, mind, and (ummm) soul. I believe God has more than enough grace to cover their unbelief and ignorance. Jesus’ baptism and resurrection are more than enough to cover their deficiencies in doctrine and behavior, or their misunderstanding of rebirth. My best guess is that there are a lot of people who died SDA, and are the (saved) spirits now saying, “Lord, who gave you these wounds?”
Dare I say, perhaps the Holy Spirit leads people through the Seventh-day Adventist experience for a time, to fulfill his will for others, for that person to grow in education or experience in positive or negative ways, or even for them to be struck down so they’ll be cast, helpless, upon him.
God seems to have called you to warn, proclaim, support, and teach. Do so with all your might.
Others have different calls. I won’t offend or alienate, but be warm and affirming to all. I will be all things to all men, that by one or more of those means, men might be saved. I can happily participate in my non-denominational church, and visit my SDA friends of four decades at their parents’ funerals or parties or alumni gatherings. Quite often, God leads me to SDAs who are on the chasm’s edge, and help direct them to safety.
I won’t go back to slavery. I stopped counting the times Adventists stabbed me in the back or financially ruined me, but that’s not why I left them. I left because their theology is so very wrong. But I don’t think they’re all going to hell. They’re choosing to live it here on earth!
Excellent article, Colleen! I sure appreciate all the work you do in making Proclamation Magazine such wonderful reading material.
Yes, God has given me His breaking heart for Adventists, too. That’s why I wrote “The Naked Truth: Exposing the Deception of Adventism”. And that’s why I keep writing and praying because I see that God is bringing people out of darkness one by one to rest in His grace alone! 🙂
Dear “Arizona”, I also believe that God can save anyone, anywhere. To say that Adventism has Satan at the core is no more terrible than to say the unsaved world is subject to Satan, the spirit who is at work in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:1-3). We are born into the domain of darkness; we are transferred out of it into the kingdom of God’s Beloved Son (Col 1:13) when we place our faith in Jesus and are born again.
One big shift in my worldview was realizing that I am born spiritually dead, unable to resist sin or to please God no matter what I did—no matter how hard I prayed. All my most noble efforts were to no avail because I was dead. That’s why Jesus said we must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.
Adventism, by definition, is not a “true church” because it does not teach the pure gospel of Scripture. It teaches “another gospel”. This does not make it worse than the world; rather, it is actually a product of the world. We are born into the domain of darkness; Adventism was also born in the domain of darkness, with its anti-trinitarian and Arian beliefs and its incomplete atonement and investigative judgment.
Jesus came for people born into the domain of darkness…all of us. All of us need Jesus’ blood to ransom us. God saves dead people wherever they are. The big “issue” here is that Adventism is not a “church” in the NT sense of the body of Christ. It does not have Jesus at the very center of its salvation. That doesn’t mean the people are demon-possessed or any more lost than the neutral unbeliever. It just means they have a different degree of deception. It’s harder to see the reality of the gospel because the words of the gospel have been perverted to a certain degree.
We are all by nature “children of wrath” (Eph 2:3). There’s no human anywhere who has not had to be born again—except the Lord Jesus. Praise God He came!! He ransomed us—we only need to receive His eternal gift.
Dear Colleen, there you go again! Dripping with disdain and condescension. How do you ever hope to “help” us poor deluded SDA by continually annoying us with slanderous half truths and misrepresenations? “In the closet Arizona” has good counsel for you. Surely you know by this time, your not so young anymore, that we are all on a journey in terms of what we are to learn about God and salvation. If you keep learning, you will most certainly look back on some of the positions you take with such cock-sureness, and you will be not a little chagrined. “If you have been able to fully comprehend God, you have comprehended something else instead of God. If we have been able to comprehend Him in our thinking, we have deceived ourselves.” Augustine
As a lifelong Adventist, I am apalled that your whole ministry is dedicated to attacking the Adventist religion. I find my local church and the world-wide church to be one of love and understanding. I’m sorry if that is not the case in your experiences, and pray that these attacks stop.
I pray for my compassion to you all and I pray for your understanding of things stated in the Bible. I hope we can all be in heaven together, worshipping the King
It is amazing how much money, effort and passion and emotion is spent by the organization, building smoke-and-mirrors tricks to create the illusion that there is a bridge.
Adventism cannot get you from here to there (Him). But they will swear that the way to stay in God’s good graces is to accept Jesus so He can help you keep the law. It’s an illusion fed by our fleshly desire to “do” and not accept that Jesus says “DONE.”
Thank you for this illustration, Colleen. I won’t soon forget it.
It’s always interesting to see how legalism lives on in those who leave Adventism behind. Instead of the overt Judaizing of Adventism, most “formers” end up with the legalism of American evangelicalism. We leave behind restorationism and revivalistic born-again Protestantism for… another form of restorationism and revivalistic born-again Protestantism.
So, the bridge is out in Adventism, yes. But the bridge is out (and has been for a long time) in American evangelicalism too. It’s just two sides of the same coin.
Mrs White stated that Christ came to help us keep the law. I see no scriptural evidence of this as the acme of His gift to man. Over and again I see scripture assuring us of His gift of salvation by grace through faith. What was the old covenant sacrificial animal but a flawless and innocent gift available to the people as an illustration of the true Sacrifice to come? Of course, normal decency recognizes the wrong of stealing, murder, lying, etc and other ill behaviors covered in all 613 mitzvoth, which, interestingly are not included in the 10 commandments. But even these laws have absolutely nothing to do with our obtaining salvation. If they did no one could be saved or if they could we wouldn’t need a savior. Paul makes clear what the law was for and how it served its purpose. Please, folks, understand we do not hate the Adventist people. We are merely people who have studied the Bible sometimes for years to learn the basis for our Adventist beliefs only to find the bulk of evidence is not in favor of those doctrines. I invite anyone to engage in such a study. I made my decisions entirely without reading from any web sites or publishings, only the Bible, then I embarked on history of the SDA movement, and only then writings of other people. I look up every text and keep an eye for context when reading them. Wow! What treasures are to be found. It’s not easy, as we are often misunderstood and falsely accused of bashing Adventism or desiring to live a licentious life. Nothing could be farther from the truth. People without a sincere desire to serve God would not voluntarily subject themselves to such treatment. I invite you to also check and be sure the road ahead for you is intact. Love to you all.
Laurel as someone who has grown old in Adventism, starting from conception, I can assure you that there are more than “seven thousand” in Adventism who have not bowed the knee to Baal, and have not by any stretch neglected the study of the Word of God, the Bible…and they are more settled in the basic SDA understandings of scripture today than ever, and for such the bridge is by no means out, for they have found Christ to be all in all. That you found your study to have drawn you OUT of Adventism is your personal journey. It is arrogant to believe that because others do not follow in your footsteps that they are careless, indifferent, ignorant, non-students of the Word. We have simply come to different conclusions. One reason for this is our differing hermeneutics, which is fundamental and will lead in strikingly different directions. Having defended Adventism against your criticism, I will now join you in enjoining those SDA who have become lazy and dependant upon EGW in their reading of scripture,leaning on her as though crippled, it’s time to wake up! I challenge you to totally lay aside EGW writings for one year, and read only the Bible, avoiding SDA publications that lean on EGW…if you do this you will be doing what EGW herself recommended, that we base every line of our faith ONLY on the Word of God, which she identified to be the Bible alone. I blush to say it, but SDA Sabbath School classes are very often not actual Bible study, but consist of “I think” and “EGW says”. Away with this! Cleanse the temple! SDA should regain the reputation they had of old as, “the people of the book” and much more, “the people enthralled with Jesus”.
Bruin I’m not finding in my above post any accusation of carelessness, indifference or ignorance if one does not follow in my footsteps and study as I did, nor any statement of belief that no SDAs study the Bible deeply, so I’m not sure why you accuse me of being arrogant for believing something I did not say I believe. You then accused SDAs (some) of being lazy and dependent upon EGW as though crippled. This seems like a double standard. I did invite people to engage in such a study as it was very beneficial to me and I’d like to share that opportunity. It was helpful to me to study in the order I did to be sure I was not being influenced by other’s conclusions and I invited others to do so also if they like. I did not and do not imply that this is the only way to study the Bible. You’re idea to invite SDAs to study the Bible alone for a year without EGW writings seems like a good one. I’d like to add the suggestion that at some time folks also research the history of the SDA denomination’s development. Again, I chose to do this in a particular order as I desired first a sound Biblical basis for the gospel and also studied the sanctuary to learn the focus of its teaching. Then only did I read other material. I also agree with your view of the SS lessons. I am familiar with the way Catholics are invited to study the Bible–with the Catechism at hand to then explain what the person just read. The SS Quarterly provides the same function and serves to reinforce the unique SDA doctrines which is very important to maintaining adherance to them. I hope this has provided some clarification.
To Orientem Oppidum: The move I made was not away from one system to another. The move I made was away from a false gospel to a place of trusting the Lord Jesus to be my Sacrifice, my Substitute, and my Savior. I’m suspecting that our foundational point of division is our respective views of Scripture. I had to decide whether EGW/SDA would be my interpreter of Scripture, whether I would be my own interpreter of truth, or whether Scripture would speak for itself.
I decided I had to allow Scripture to speak since it declares that it is, in every jot and tittle, God’s word. So I asked God to help me read Scripture without any Adventist filters. That commitment led to several years of study, and the Bible revealed facts and a reality that I had not seen before.
I agree that it’s useless to leave one system for another. But to leave one system and to find a living Person who is Light and Life and in whom there is no darkness at all—and to discover that He breathed out His own word as a special revelation to humanity—that transfer has changed my life. It’s a change that is not merely cognitive or emotion-based or something that “works for me”. Finding the gospel and knowing Jesus has literally changed me and given me a new worldview. Reality actually makes sense now. And I know I have “passed from death to life” (Jn 5:24).
Colleen,
Yes, Scripture is the norma normans non normata. But that wasn’t the point of my post.
We are all part of a tradition, whether we like it or not. It’s part and parcel of being embodied. We also all bring assumptions (though not Adventist ones) to the text of Holy Scripture, whether we are aware of it or not. That is also a fact of living life on this earth. To claim otherwise on either count is simply hubris.
So, back to what I said in my post. It seems that formers tend to end up in mostly non-denom/evangelical churches (the ones who actually make it to Christianity that is). And my point was that this revivalist/egalitarian/individualist tradition is exactly the pietist stew that spawned things like Adventism in the first place. Basically, I am saying that former Adventists don’t usually fall far from the Adventist tree.
I’m glad that people leave Adventism. I did it too. It is just sad to see so many former Adventists who are shaped by the text of Scripture up to a point, but no further.
†Pax Christi
Keep up the good work Colleen. I totally agree. Adventism is a system that in most instances sends people to a lost eternity.
It would be interesting to know the statistics regarding where former SDAs choose to worship. I for one have chosen a non-denominational church which does not have a governing body over a group of churches which is how first century Christianity operated. I judge no other choices, it is simply my choice. The service and music is brief, reverent(what a blessing), meaningful, contextual pure gospel with the Bible in the hand of the pastor and I have enjoyed a surprising level of genuine friendliness and kindness from the attendees. I believe it is not possible to find a church that teaches every single thing a person may interpret for themselves for some things are not that clearly described in the scriptures, but the thing with Adventism is that, like the Catholic tradition, the Adventist hierarchy dispenses the interpretation from the administration and woe be unto anyone choosing a different point of view. This is why former Adventists are seen as “heretics,” sometimes endure an “inquisition” of sorts and are stripped of membership if they do not voluntarily lay it down. Worse, I believe, and unlike the Catholic church which thoroughly teaches its religion prior to baptism, the SDA interests are spoon-fed selected texts to prove their point of view, mixing in just enough heart-tugging gospel to motivate a person and are often baptized with a huge lack of knowledge of what they are getting into and no real knowledge of how the whole thing started in the 1840s. Ask anyone who wasn’t born into it. From that point on they are fed via the SS Quarterly (SDA catechism). I’m going to go out on a limb here and state that I believe the unique SDA world-view also colors how many members behave toward one another and people of “the world.” I encourage any SDA reading here to search the scriptures for a knowledge of Christ and His ministry. What you will find is marvelous and you may even find your new world-view opens the way for the fruits of the Spirit to bloom and bear fruit in a way you have seldom witnessed. Love to all.
May the Lord reward you accordingly according to your works.
Its so sad what so called Christians are doing in Jesus’ name. There are lots of scripture which speak of Judgemenmt, eg Heb 10:30; but you choose the ones that suite your theology. the NIV is a poor translation btw
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (KJV)
This makes sense in light of Romans 8 vs 1.. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
Shall i say Satan hides at the very core of your church because i disagree 100% with some of your doctrines ?????
I am a Christian and THAT is NOT the attitude of Christ hence i will follow the teachings of my master who is lowly in heart and meek
I pray for your repentence and that you resist the devil before its too late
Maranatha, even so come Lord Jesus and take us home. This world is NOT our Home
Hebrews 10 is a great chapter, as is the whole book. Thank you for bringing it up, Ubekim. As a result I read again several chapters, beginning with 10:28-30, then the entire chapter, then chapters 8 and 9. This is how I search for context and find it very rewarding. Those 3 chapters read consecetively make for great understanding of the gospel of Christ. A new topic for research might be to locate every text with the word “judgment” and consult Hebrew and Greek lexicons for meaning of each word translated “judgment.” As an SDA I was taught that Rev 14:7 refered to the “investigative judgment” of those in the Book of Life (professed Christians)which they believe began in 1844, being tied somehow to Dan 8:14. Desiring to understand those two texts, resulting in the foundational doctrine of SDAs caused me to embark on a 4-year study of the Bible so that I could clearly explain the reason for my faith. What I found was the gospel. The Bible is precious, the story of God. It’s not so much about us. All readers, bless you as you enjoy your search through the scriptures.
Laurel, Yes! Context is everything! Ubekim, I didn’t say there is no judgement. I did quote Scripture that says when we believe in Jesus, we do not come into judgment. The quote above is not from the NIV; it’s from the NASB, a word for word, not a thought equivalency translation.
Here’s what we know about judgment:
1. All of us are born under judgment, by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:1-3; Jn. 3:18, etc.)
2. Jesus took God’s judgment on sin into Himself and became the propitiation for our sin, turning away God’s wrath against sin and against those of us who believe (Rom. 3:20-27).
3. Our judgment for sin happens either at the cross when we believe and receive His eternal gift, or it happens at the Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20) for those who do not believe.
4. There is a judgment for rewards for believers, for works done in the flesh after being born again (1 Cor. 3:7-10). Even if a believer’s works are not works of the Spirit and are burned up, he himself will be saved “as one escaping through the flames”.
5. Salvation is a gift, not a reward. We receive it as a gift from God (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4-5), but “rewards” are things given to us for a job well done. Our works done after we are made alive by the Lord Jesus are not things that affect our salvation; they are evaluated for their effect for God’s kingdom (see 1 Cor 3:7-10). The rewarded works we do as born again believers are God’s works “which He prepared in advance for us to do” (Eph. 2:10).
There is definitely judgment. Those who are in Christ, however, have already passed that judgment for sin because they are IN Christ Jesus, and they are credited with His perfect personal righteousness (Phil. 3:7-10). There is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1), and His Spirit testifies with our spirits that we are children of God and joint heirs with Christ if we share in His sufferings (Rom. 8:14-16).
Thanks for those texts, Colleen, about the distinction between rewards and judgment, which is important, as entire doctrines can be constructed on a misunderstanding of that. SDAs have the view that there are 3 types of persons being judged at one time or another: The saved, the lost, and those who thought they might be saved but who are found lost after a special judgment of them. This is the foundational doctrine of SDAs, the “investigative judgment,” which is based primarily on two texts in the Bible and even this has evolved over time. This also segways to the idea of sabbath sovereignty as part of the need to perfectly obey the 10 commandments which the denomination decided are the standard by which persons in the Book of Life are judged, as well as a huge list of things suggested by the co-founder of the denomination. Hence “seventh-day” was added to the name “adventist” to identify the new denomination which grew out of the Millerite movement of repeated date-setting for an imminent advent, or second coming of Christ. For non-SDAs reading here that is it in a nutshell. Seeing this for the first time probably is surprising, but SDAs either are born into the church or receive instruction with a grouping of texts that seem to make sense at the time. They made sense to me as a child but I was influenced by the love of Christ and the gospel and clung to that while accepting the above-mentioned doctrines which were revealed slowly over time so that,like the frog in the pot, I didn’t realize I was slowly being transformed from a perfectly good frog to a boiled one. Point being, let’s all prayerfully and carefully examine our Bibles for the good news it contains and be careful not to fall for meaning in a text or two without examining the “big picture.” No one is denegrated for cherishing and sharing their views here, we are all learning and sharing. Happy exploring and blessings to all.
colleen, who represents the scapegoat?
The two goats (or lambs) used for the Day of Atonement sin offering and for the scapegoat were both equally spotless; they were designated for their respective roles by casting lots. Either goat could have served as either part of the sacrifice.
The teaching that the scapegoat is Satan plays nicely with the Adventist view of Jesus and Satan being engaged in an ongoing battle—the great controversy. It also is a logical derivation of the (somewhat suppressed but still impacting) EGW writing that Satan became jealous of Jesus because God admitted Jesus into the council of the godhead—as if Lucifer ever could have imagined that he could have been chosen to function in the role of his own Creator.
Moreover, Leviticus 16 says the scapegoat had the sins of Israel placed on its head and was “presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, to send it.” Atonement was and is made upon NO ONE but Jesus.
Here’s an article that will explain the scapegoat in detail:http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2010/2/scapegoat.html
The “investigative judgment” linked to the Hebrew sanctuary system is Adventism’s “bridge-to-heaven” doctrine since SDAs believe its outcome determines whether professed Christians are saved or not. (E.G.White’s original doctrine, though the church hierarchy has tried to change the purpose of the IJ to Christ’s defending His work to His accuser, Satan.) It’s appalling that persons joining the church today are taught differently from those from years ago. Anyone can read EGW to discover this, though some earlier writings have been altered for damage control (thought control?) and I fear that much more may occur, as the leadership strives to keep the ship afloat. One challenge for them is the liberalization or “progressive” wing of thought which rejects EGW, and the need for the “traditional” EGW wing in order for the church to
have a reason to exist. If they can make the IJ doctrine palatable enough they can still justify the sabbath doctrine, thereby keeping the most important stuff and possibly easing EGW to the dusty files of history, seldom consulted, which will satisfy the growing progressive mind set. A compromise that just might keep the church going. One doesn’t even need EGW for the idea of the papacy as the Revelation “beast,” since Sir Isaac Newton, Martin Luther and many others entertained that view. This was not EG White’s idea. “Formers” want to point out that the “bridge” was not built of sound material
from the beginning, has been borrowed from others and has been repeatedly patched up. Readers/seekers will decide for themselves based on what they see if they’re willing to look deeply, but one must not make a choice without a thorough examination. (Perhaps judgment could be a new blog topic by itself as there is so much to learn and share.)
Laurel, I like the gentle spirit your words manifest. Yet I must call you to task over your judgment of the motives of “the church” [SDA] when we adjust our understanding of that portion of scripture that speaks in detail of the Day of Atonement. The New Testament doesn’t just wipe out the Old Testament, but shows the fulfillment of OT types in the ministry of Christ [from birth to resurrection], as well as the fulfillment of OT prophecies in the unfolding of salvation history. So, if you throw out what has been dubbed “The Investigative Judgment”, what are you going to do with that portion of scripture that describes the biblical “Day of Atonement”? The SDA have theirs on the table, for all to see and criticise…what it your interpretation, Evangelical, Former Adventist, or whoever? Further, “you’all” blast us for our Investigative Judgment interpretation of the Day of Atonement…so should we erase it from our statement of beliefs? Yet, when we are continuing to study, and we modify our position based on a growing understanding of the Gospel, this is “appalls” you, because we now teach something to new “recruits” that we did not teach to the old-timers. Give us a break!!! We’re a young group and we have learned a lot together, and we continue to learn a lot, and you can help us, but you are less likely to be helpful if your tone is condescending, spiteful or condemnatory. And by the way, those same attitudes make it impossible for you to learn anything at all from the best SDA thinkers and Bible students…since we have Satan at our core (Colleen). Your loss!
Bruin I am sorry you feel my tone was condescending, spiteful, condemnatory or “blasting” in my post above. However, the church is assailed by a growing number who do not accept EGW as a prophetess and it must react to protect its reason for existence. None of the doctrines upon which the church is based originated with her though she is described as a prophetess who received communication from God. I agree that the N.T. shows fulfillment of O.T. prophecies regarding salvation. The sanctuary system points to Christ the Lamb and the Day of Atonement Lord’s goat. I see the sacrifice of that Lamb/Goat on the cross for the penalty of our sins in the person of Jesus and that I understand as atonement. Christ is now Lamb and King of kings and Lord of lords. Satan was judged that day as the loser, Christ as the Conqueror, sin was conquered and anyone who believes in Christ our sacrifice was judged cleansed from sin, as was the thief on the cross next to Jesus. The O.T. faithful now have attained the promise, what Christ referred to as rest. No other judgment seems to be implied till the judgment of Babylon (the hour of his judgment is come, Babylon is fallen, do not worship the beast and his image, the harvest of the earth is ripe, another angel with a sickle, and a sixth angel who orders the reaping of the earth, Rev. 14. And in one hour Babylon’s plagues come and her riches come to nought, Rev. 18.) The judgment given to those who resisted the beast who reigned with Christ a thousand years (Rev. 20:4) And the judgment which appears to be after the thousand years from the two books with those not in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:12-15. I see no clear reference to judgment of Christians prior to this end-of-days scenario. More importantly I do not see how Christ’s blood could contain sin and thus bring sin into any heavenly sanctuary as EGW states. His body received the penalty for our sin and His shed blood made us at one with God. His blood is precious and cleanses, it does not soil. This took place on earth. It is His record of being our sacrifice for us and for the end of sin’s rule on earth that He took to His Father who welcomed Him to His throne as King of kings. And no, the SDA denomination could not exist without the IJ doctrine and my reading of denominational history indicates that it has been closely defended since the idea was adopted by J. and E.G. White. What apalls me is how the denomination has eased away from the IJ as determining who is perfect enough to be worthy of entrance to heaven as EGW taught in exchange for Christ defending the efficacy of His cross to an accusing Satan for the last 1800 years. Lastly, sir, I do not understand why a church formed by a person who claimed to be instructed directly by God and angels and who is hailed as a prophetess would need to grow in understanding of the gospel.
True enough, Laurel. Importantly, though, even the progressive Adventists retain the “great controversy worldview” which includes Jesus and Satan trying to win human loyalty in order to vindicate their respective points. It further includes the Sabbath as something of eternal significance. It includes a reduced Jesus against whom Satan has launched a rivalry, an eternal Law that must be honored, and an extra-biblical prophetic “voice” that gave needed direction when the organization was young and struggling.
Importantly, the progressives are as adamant as the “historics” that humans are physical beings without a spirit that can exist separated from the body. All Adventists share this belief which makes the new birth a quaint phrase with no meaning except for a mental assent to “the truth”…which also has a private interpretation within the organization.
To be sure, progressive Adventists have consciously jettisoned some of the SDA cornerstones, but their worldview remains the same, and their misapprehension of the nature of man distorts their understanding of Jesus, of sin, of salvation, and of the new birth just as surely as that worldview distorts historic Adventists perception of biblical truth.
So Colleen, do you now appreciate more than before when people say “bless you” when you sneeze? That practice of course has it’s roots in the belief that humans have a separate “entity” called a spirit, and that this “spirit” can be ejected during the sneeze, becoming vulnerable to demonic attack in that brief exposure outside of the body. That heresy is also the foundation for Spiritualism, the belief that these spirits, released from the body of the dead can wander about and communicate with those still in their bodies. you know very well where I’m going with that, so I’ll leave there. Yet I must affirm the truth: the Bible is very clear that “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth”. That we are, while corporeal, also spiritual beings is evident. If we are to understand and appreciate anything that God communicates to us about Himself, we must have a spiritual aspect to our beings. To be brief, we “have” a spirit just as surely as we “have” an intellect, or we “have a heart”[short-hand for the emotional component of who we are]. We “are” souls and we “are” spirits, but we cease to be when we die, and we “praise not the Lord” (Psalm 115:17)
Thanks, Colleen, for teaching me/us more about progressive SDA worldview. There is much more learning for me to do. I suggested the above-mentioned compromise as a plausibility way in the future, as I don’t see how the church can stand the stress of being torn in two or more directions forever. Yes, I see that the IJ and its child, the sabbath, and the idea of a big test revolving around the sabbath does denegrate Christ’s work of salvation. Our salvation depends wholly on Christ but Jesus told the disciples they can please God by what they do in love and mercy towards their fellow man. He did not mention sabbath-keeping as the real characteristic of faithful followers of the gospel. I do see Satan defeated at the cross and the Old Covenant thereby ratified, providing the ransom the Old Testament believers reached forward to by faith and which man has been able to receive ever since. It is the surity of a promise. The cross accomplished so much more than providing salvation for poor human beings. Primarily, I believe, it defeated evil and the evil one, and the residents of heaven rejoice at the execution of justice on judgment day. Justice can be thought of as a synonym for fairness.(Rev 19:1,2)
Colleen, where in the world do you folks get the idea that the seventh-day Sabbath, the “Sabbath of the Lord your God” is a “child of the Investigative Judgment”? Is this another of your “straw men”. I must smile at it, just as one would a cute straw man in a farmer’s field with denim overalls, raggedy plaid shirt and floppy hat…with a crow sitting unafraid on it’s head. Silly and meaningless. The Sabbath is the “child of creation” and as such is eternal in it’s significance, because it is of eternal significance that God is God precisely because He is the creator of the universe. My personal, private belief is that our creator is consistent throughout His creation, and I expect that we will learn, when we enter eternity, how the sequence and timing of earth’s creation week fits with the creation activities of God in the rest of His vaste universe…I cannot believe that our world is the “oddity” in the way God creates and relates to created beings. [My opinion: not derived from EGW, as far as I know]
Bruin, I am the reader here who used the term “child of.” If that seemed careless or shallow I offer my apology. Here is what I meant to convey:
1 A fellow in a cornfield gets idea Dan. 7:14 is about day of atonement in heavenly sanctuary. 2 James White accepts idea. 3 Now have to work out what was being cleansed from sanctuary and peoples’ sin is chosen. There ensues references to Christ’s blood as containing our sin but our un-confessed sins recorded in the book of life becomes the focus. 4 Now have to work out by what standard this cleansing, investigation or judgment is made and keeping the 10 commandments is chosen rather than gift of Christ’s character and sacrifice on our behalf through our faith which is itself a gift of God. SDA view became that one has to confess every sin to be saved or in the last days develop a perfect character. 5 Therefore only way to be a commandment-keeper is to be one who honors and observes the 7th day as sabbath even though all other Christians are not in favor of false witness, theft, murder, etc. 6 So how does one observe the sabbath? Evidently not by O.T. standards. But question remains unanswered Biblically since no instruction regarding sabbath given in N.T. so sabbatarians consult themselves to determine the standards, resulting in a plethora of practices, eg. can wade but can’t swim, may we buy baby formula if we run out or wait all day? etc. 7 Since other churches did not teach this it seemed neccessary to form a new denomination but could use more than one text to justify it so Rev. 14:7 was adopted as pertaining to this pre-advent judgment of professed Christians despite the context of that verse. Denominational history in a nutshell but I encourage people to study that for themselves, don’t just take my word.
Laurel, thanks for your thoughtful post. I want to address is in a sequential way. First, the Adventist organization is pulling itself almost threadbare on the surface, with all sorts of “flavors” of Adventists from historic to “1888-ers” to “evangelical” to “progressives”. There are even the “feasters” who are returning to keeping all the OT Jewish feast days.
But this “pulling” is only on the surface. Adventists all have roots that go down to the same core values: the physical (non-literal-spirit) nature of man (externally demonstrated by their visceral connection to the “health message”), the eternality of the law in some respect with special emphasis on the Sabbath, the need for Christians to demonstrate that God and His law are fair, the significance of EGW in some respect, and the identity of Satan as the scapegoat—however his role is defined.
There is only ONE Adventism. None of the fundamental beliefs have ever been renounced, and none of the various “flavors” of Adventism has separated from them. All Adventists are baptized into the ONE Adventist church. If an Adventist does not subscribe to the Adventist worldview, he is being disingenuous not to leave the organization. It is dishonest to claim one set of beliefs while belonging to an organization and thus representing oneself as believing differently.
So I do not believe the church is heading for a true schism because Adventists share fundamental beliefs that make it impossible for them to stray far from each other. They may officially “leave” and begin a “new church”, but even those new churches will resemble the mother church because those who break away over differences of emphasis and degree and fiscal control still hold their Adventist worldview.
Second, Jesus’ statements about showing mercy and love to one’s fellow men were never statements about being saved. They were statements about the natural result of living by the Spirit AFTER being saved. Matthew 7:21-23 records Jesus’ words that not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord” (in other words, not everyone who calls Jesus “Lord”) will enter heaven. Many will remind Him that they prophesied, cast out demons, and performed many miracles in His name—but He will say to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me.”
Jesus explains in John 3:1-21 what it means to “know Him”. That is an intimate term that is the same term used for husbands and wives “knowing” each other. For Jesus to “know” us, we must be born again, born of the Spirit. This, Jesus says, is the ONLY way to enter the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3-6). We do not “stay saved” by doing good any more than we “become saved” by doing good. We can no more be lost because of our deeds or lack of them than we can be saved because of them.
Third, saying “our salvation depends wholly upon Christ” is a nebulous statement that Adventists use. As an Adventist, I understood this (and have heard countless Adventists refer to this idea) to mean Christ lived a sinless life and died and rose again to show us successful law-keeping can be done, and that He will be the power that helps us do it.
Scripture tells us God displayed Jesus publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith to demonstrate God’s righteousness in leaving all the sins committed beforehand unpunished (Rom. 3:26-27). Jesus’ blood fully paid for human sin; we are justified when we accept His sacrifice. His resurrection is what saves us…His resurrection life is what brings our dead spirits to life. Jesus has NO MORE work to do related to our salvation. It is finished. His intercession is not a continuation of the atonement. Rather, it is an eternal intercession upon which our entire eternal future hangs. Jesus’ blood is what pays for our sin, and He Is forever the intercessor between God and Man, the One who guarantees our eternal destiny. Once we receive Jesus and are born/sealed by His Spirit, we are eternally saved (Jn. 5:24-25; 3:18; 3:3-6).
Finally, judgment for believers happened at the cross. John 3:18: “He who believes in Him is not judged; He who does not believe has been judged already, because He has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Those who believe and are born again pass out of judgment. Judgment at the end of the age is for unbelievers (Revelation 20).
Justice and fairness are not the same. Scripture never, ever refers to God as “fair”. It does call Him “Just”. He is, in fact, both Just and the Justifier of those who believe (Rom. 3:26-27). God is not demonstrating that He is fair. He is Sovereign, and we can only do as Job did in Job 42 when he repented in sackcloth and said to God that He had spoken of things of which he had no knowledge. We do not understand God, nor does He ever promise to answer all our questions or demonstrate His fairness.
Romans 9:17-22 is very clear that we have no right to question God or to argue with Him. He is the Sovereign Creator who has redeemed all creation in Christ. He asks us to submit our rationale and our worldview and our understanding to Him and to learn to listen to His Word which is His living revelation of His will to us.
No, God is not merely fair. He is Just, and we can only worship Him, praising Him for calling us to have a tiny role in His story!
Thanks again for greater depth of understanding. Written words often do not convey exactly what we had in mind so I’d like to clarify some of my foregoing comments. My speculation about survivability of the denomination was based on consternation that so many people can choose such differing views and can sometimes be baptized without full disclosure of what the church expects of them and still stay within the church. If they read EGW deeply they would know what she said they are to believe. They are culling her teachings rather than looking at the foundational problem. I, too, see that as intellectually dishonest and I’ve left the church for a gospel-based place of worship.
Depending wholly on Christ for salvation was my personal observation, not something learned from the church, and my statement about loving others as derived from His teachings was to make clear that this is not the means to salvation but rather the response to it. Sabbath-“keeping” out of duty can never compare to the kind of willing love for others God desires us to develope.
Lastly, I entertained the concept of God’s fairness as a result of folks saying they don’t see how God can be loving and punish also. (Questioning God as you stated above.) Parents do this all the time on the human level and it would be psychologically abusive for them not to guide their children. I see the utter destruction of all that is evil as the loving part of justice on God’s level but I will be careful to peruse your thoughts on the subject. The heavenly beings in the text above praise God for dispensing this justice and they know God’s love more than we at this time.
I hope others will jump in on these discussions, Especially non-SDAs or faithful SDAs. There is so much to learn and share. My apologies for posting so much but I’ve never had such a safe and mutually sincere environment for discussion of God’s affairs. Could we imagine discussing the Cross in this way in a Sabbath School class? Blessings to all and thank you, Colleen and the other bloggers for your thoughtful topics.