Colleen and Nikki continue Chapter 12 of Hebrews, discussing that believers come to Jesus and the church; they don’t go to the mountain of Sinai. Transcription by Gwen Billington.
Nikki: Welcome to Former Adventist podcast. I’m Nikki Stevenson.
Colleen: And I’m Colleen Tinker.
Nikki: And today we’re going to be walking through the last section of Hebrews chapter 12. We began the first section last week. If you haven’t heard it, we encourage you to go back and listen. But before we get started, I just want to remind you that if you have any comments or questions for us, you can write to us at formeradventist@gmail.com, and you can sign up for our weekly blogs and our back issues of print magazines at proclamationmagazine.com, and don’t forget to like and follow us on Instagram and Facebook. This section of Hebrews 12, Colleen, I honestly don’t remember reading as an Adventist, and it seems convenient that I wouldn’t because it really is a contrast between the Old and New Covenants.
Colleen: True.
Nikki: Do you remember reading this?
Colleen: No, I don’t. Even though I think I did, it didn’t fit my worldview, and it’s one of those parts of Scripture that just rolled off my back, and I didn’t remember it. I couldn’t have talked to you about it as an Adventist, and I don’t remember reading it, though I know I must have.
Nikki: I wonder if one of the reasons it wasn’t so familiar to me is because the way that the author talks about the giving of the Old Covenant, he’s describing everything going on around it, the fire and the thunder and all of that, and I don’t remember even reading about that as an Adventist. I just remember starting with the Ten Commandments.
Colleen: Well, I think Adventism has done an amazing job of picking and choosing which parts of the Old Covenant they will claim for themselves, and they sort of tend to conveniently forget all the dire warnings and the demonstrations of God’s holiness that actually threatened Israel if they didn’t do what He said.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: So they don’t talk about that because Adventism has the belief and the teaching that you need Jesus in order to access the law and come into the fullness of God.
Nikki: Oh, yeah.
Colleen: And it’s exactly backwards. Hebrews has made it really clear that we need Jesus to get us out of the law, we access God through Jesus and His shed blood, and the law is fulfilled in Jesus, and we don’t go back to the law, so it’s not surprising that Adventism downplayed all the fearful parts of the giving of the law because they want us to carry the commandments with us.
Nikki: Yeah, that makes sense.
Colleen: This section of Hebrews 12 is roughly divided into two parts, and the first part is really pretty exciting to me. When I really read this and understood it, it was kind of shocking what our inheritance is when we know Jesus, and it contrasts the old and the new so clearly. So, Nikki, why don’t you just start us off by reading verses 18 to 24, and we’ll talk our way through that.
Nikki: Okay. “For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, ‘If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.’ Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, ‘I tremble with fear.’ But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”
Colleen: Wow. So, Nikki, when you read verses 18 through 20, this is the description, in a nutshell, of the giving of the law. What stands out to you in these three verses?
Nikki: Well, I imagine that that must have been a very scary thing, and God would have seemed so unapproachable. I mean, the commandment said that if you even touch the mountain, you’re going to die. And that would be a very fearful thing.
Colleen: What they saw would have been shocking, and God warned them. He had them build a fence around the mountain so that not even an animal could accidentally touch it. And then the day the Lord came and met Moses and spoke to Israel, before Moses went up to mediate, He came, and how did He manifest Himself on that mountain?
Nikki: He was smoke and fire.
Colleen: Yeah, exactly. And in verse 18 it says, “Darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and blazing fire.” I mean, that’s terrifying. It doesn’t sound bright and happy and, like, the King is here in all His glory, although He was. It was the terrifying side of His glory. And then in verse 19 it also had sounds. What were the sounds that came?
Nikki: “The sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them.” It’s interesting that it doesn’t say what the voice was saying.
Colleen: No.
Nikki: It sounds like it was very chaotic and very terrifying.
Colleen: And this is the word of God that’s speaking, and the people don’t want to hear Him. It scares them to death. And we know from Genesis 1 and from John 1 that the word of God is what spoke everything into existence. When this word spoke to sinful Israel, it terrified them, and they ran away for their lives and didn’t want to hear it. And this is the same God. This is not a different God. This is the same God as the God in the New Testament. This is the same God as the God of the New Covenant. But you know, Adventism never did a good job of explaining this to me. I’ve heard arguments all through my Adventist upbringing that said, “Well, the God of the Old Testament manifested differently than the God of the New Testament,” and even as an Adventist, I knew it was the same God, but I couldn’t describe the difference, why it looked so different. But it’s very clear here in this book why He seems different in the two covenants. What we see here is the holiness of God, the glory of God, manifesting itself on that mountain, where He gave the law. The people begged for Moses to mediate because they couldn’t bear to hear God’s voice. They feared it would kill them. And they feared rightly because the Bible says that they were sinful, that we are born children of wrath by nature, we’re born dead in sin. That was no different for Israel. And they had not understood yet the blood of Jesus because it hadn’t happened in real time, and they hadn’t even been given the law yet, which foreshadowed the fact that there would be atonement by blood sacrifice. So they’re terrified. But then the author immediately contrasts the fear of Israel in the presence of God’s holiness with what we have in the New Covenant. So when you look at 22 to 24, what do you see there, Nikki?
Nikki: Well, I see two things. I see that not only is the nature of what we’ve come to different, the entire location is different. We’re not going to the foot of the mountain where the Mosaic covenant is given to Israel. We’re going before God Himself on the basis of the work of Christ under a New Covenant. It’s entirely different.
Colleen: It’s astonishing to me, actually. It’s a completely different thing. And the law and Sinai has no place in what we have as New Covenant believers. This description makes it totally clear; there is no piece of the law in there, no piece of Sinai.
Nikki: It’s like the first section is coming to something that is going to tell them what they have to do. Here, we’re coming to something that has already been accomplished for us, and now we are entered into the results of that. It’s completely different.
Colleen: Yeah. And the first one is not only what they’re going to have to do, but it came with a promise of death. They knew that the holiness of God would kill them if they got too close, and the law just confirmed that. They were under sentence of death for their sin. You said that you saw a couple of things. What was the second thing you saw in those verses, Nikki?
Nikki: It was just the nature of what we have come to. We’re not coming to a set of expectations for acceptance; we’re coming into a family. We’re coming into the results of what Christ did. “You’ve come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God.” You can’t do that under the condition that the Israelites were in before Christ came, and so we’re coming already acceptable to be in front of, in the presence of the living God. We’re coming to the heavenly Jerusalem, the better Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering. This is the picture of celebration, of homecoming, of completion.
Colleen: It reminds me of Revelation 5:11 where John saw myriads and myriads and thousands and thousands of angels saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the lamb that was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And it’s just so cool to me that this Hebrews passage is saying that as members of the New Covenant, as citizens of God’s kingdom, we are even now coming not only to the heavenly Jerusalem and the city of the living God, but we’re coming to these myriads of angels who are praising God, and we are praising God with them.
Nikki: Um-hmm. [Laughter.]
Colleen: What else do you see in here, in verses 23 and 24, Nikki?
Nikki: Well, it says we’ve come to “the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.” Coming to the assembly of the firstborn, we are being gathered, we are among that assembly. It’s the unity of the church.
Colleen: In fact, in the NASB it uses the word “church”: “To the general assembly and church of the firstborn.” It was interesting to me to read that the word “firstborn” in this context is plural, not singular, so that we who are in the general assembly and church, we are the firstborn, we belong to the (capital) Firstborn, if you will, Jesus, who’s the firstfruits and the Firstborn, but we belong to Him, and as the church, we are God’s firstborn. That’s what it suggests here. We enrolled in heaven. Now, that reminds me of John 5:24 where it says when we believe, we pass from death to life and do not come into judgment. We’re not hoping to be enrolled in heaven; we are. That’s our home now.
Nikki: It kind of does away with the Investigative Judgment, doesn’t it? We’re not in books that are being reviewed. We are enrolled. We are in the Book of Life.
Colleen: That is so cool. And as we come to the assembly of the church of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven, who is there?
Nikki: We come to God, the judge of all.
Colleen: And we’re not being judged, as John 5:24 says. We have been judged already in Christ. Our sin was judged on the cross. We are now citizens, enrolled in heaven, and we come straight to God on the basis of Jesus, unafraid of His judgment because His judgment isn’t being cast toward us. And then who are the spirits of the righteous made perfect?
Nikki: Well, that would be the Old Testament saints.
Colleen: But today, 2000 years later, it includes them and everybody in the church. Yeah, everybody’s who’s gone on before to be with the Lord. But, Nikki, is this not an amazing verse? Doesn’t that confirm what we were taught didn’t exist?
Nikki: This is incredible. I mean, the writer of Hebrews is writing to people who are alive on earth, and he’s telling those people who are alive on earth that they have come to the spirits of the righteous made perfect. You can’t have that in Adventism, that can’t – [Laughter.]
Colleen: No. [Laughter.]
Nikki: Like, I would love to have a Clear Word in front of my and see what they do with that one.
Colleen: Oooh, what a great idea. I just happen to have one here. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Let me read it. I have to read 23 and 24 together. Here’s the Clear Word: “We also belong to that great assembly because our names are written in heaven, and we have all the spiritual rights of a firstborn. We who have been made perfect through Christ have come in heart and spirit into the presence of God, the judge of all the earth, and to Jesus, the mediator of the covenant of faith, whose blood has a better word for us than the blood of Abel, which calls only for justice.”
Nikki: So it says nothing about the spirits made perfect.
Colleen: No. It doesn’t say it at all. It says, “We who have been made perfect through Christ have come in heart and spirit into the presence of God.”
Nikki: Oh.
Colleen: It eliminates it entirely. No wonder we didn’t see this when we were Adventists.
Nikki: Their use of “we have come in spirit,” as an Adventist when I would read “spirit,” I often thought, like, mood or frame of mind. So that’s not surprising. Yeah, but that’s not what the Bible says, is it?
Colleen: No. The Bible clearly says there are spirits, or the essence of people, who are made perfect, and we come into their presence when we come into the New Covenant. You know, I’ve thought, Nikki, sometimes about the significance of that, that when we are born again, it says in Ephesians, it says it repeatedly throughout the New Testament, that we are seated with Jesus at the right hand of the Father. Colossians 3:3 says we’re hidden with Christ in God, and Ephesians 2 says we’re seated with Him in heavenly places. That means that, as born again believers, even though we’re still on earth in mortal flesh, our spirits are in Christ, along with the spirits of every other believer who has ever lived. So even though we don’t have access to the dead, we are united with them in Christ, although we have no consciousness of them at the moment. But this clearly says the spirits of the righteous are made perfect, and we come to them. This isn’t a maybe and a future. This is what actually is when we’re born again, even though physically we can’t perceive it.
Nikki: And the word there in Greek for the spirits is “pneumasi,” and that’s “pneuma,” it’s the same word that the Greek uses of the Holy Spirit.
Colleen: Yes, it is the same word. And we can’t say it means “breath” when it refers to humans but “God” when it refers to the Holy Spirit. It’s the same word, and the parallel definition is given very clearly. In fact, Jesus said it to the Samaritan woman, “God is spirit, and true worshippers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” We’re in His image because we are made with spirits, and right here it tells us, those spirits are with God, and we are with God, and we come to them as well as to Jesus and the Father and the angels. It’s so exciting!
Nikki: It is!
Colleen: So then, talk through 24. What’s the last thing it says about who we come to?
Nikki: “To Jesus, the mediator of a New Covenant.” This is the culmination of everything we’ve just read through Hebrews, beginning in 1 all the way through. So now when we read that Jesus is the mediator of a New Covenant, there is meat behind that. We understand that, after walking through Hebrews, and it is a beautiful picture of security and salvation and compassion and so much hope!
Colleen: So much hope. And His sprinkled blood, His sprinkled blood, which echoes that first Passover in Exodus, when Moses commanded the Israelites to sprinkle the blood of the Passover lamb on their doorposts and all the firstborn were saved alive.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: And all through the history of Israel where they sprinkled blood on Passover, and then came that Passover when Jesus died, and in one sacrifice He completed the two major atoning feasts of Israel. He was the sacrifice of Passover – He was the Passover lamb – and He completed the Day of Atonement. He was the Day of Atonement sacrifice. His single once-for-all death fulfilled both of those feasts, and here in Hebrews we see the reference to His sprinkled blood.
Nikki: I think it’s pretty incredible that it’s contrasted with the blood of Abel. The blood of Abel cried out to God. I don’t think it says this in the text, but I often think that the blood of Abel was crying out to God for justice, and the blood of Christ was the ultimate justification and justice for those who would believe.
Colleen: Jesus’ blood answered Abel’s blood’s cry, and He’s essentially – by shedding His blood, He atoned for Abel’s cry for justice and for the cry of justice that all of us who believe have cried. His blood has settled that forever. Let’s now look at the last part of this section of Hebrews 12, where the author actually describes the coming, unshakable kingdom. Do you mind reading 25 to 29?
Nikki: “See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if the people did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject Him who warns us from heaven? At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, ‘Once more I will shake not only the earth, but heaven as well.’ The words ‘Once more’ signify the removal of what can be shaken – that is, created things – so that the unshakable may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. For our God is a consuming fire.”
Colleen: He even talks through the end of all things and the beginning of the eternal kingdom here. So there’s a little warning in 25. It’s his last warning to his readers, just in case there’s anybody who’s uncertain, anybody who hasn’t completely trusted Jesus. What’s his warning here, Nikki, in 25?
Nikki: Not to refuse Christ. I mean, when I look at it together with 24, “to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word,” and then “See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks,” Christ is offering – He’s offering salvation through His sprinkled blood, through His shed blood. If we refuse to see that, to accept that – on His terms, by the way, not on what we choose is palatable – then we won’t escape, we won’t escape Him.
Colleen: And he even contrasts this with Sinai: “For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth,” well, who was he that warned them on earth? What was that about? What is that a reference to?
Nikki: Isn’t that the Mosaic covenant?
Colleen: Moses and the law and Mt. Sinai with its smoke and fire and trembling and darkness and whirlwinds, those warnings of God’s holiness and their need for a way to have atonement for their sin, those who refuse that very physical, very earthly warning, it’s going to be much worse for those who refuse Him who is warning from heaven. Who’s warning from heaven?
Nikki: The whole Trinity, I imagine. The Holy Spirit convicts the world. The Lord has come and shed His blood and is calling people. The Father is drawing them to the Son. They’re working together to bring us to salvation, but that offer comes with that warning.
Colleen: And the thing that’s so amazing here is that Jesus is from heaven. He did come to earth from heaven, and He is now in heaven, and His warning is from heaven, both in His incarnation and in His ascension, as He deals with us, as you said, through the Holy Spirit and with the power and the love and the provision of the Father. This is our last warning in this book. Heed Him, listen to Him, don’t reject Him. And when He says that His blood is the only way to have access to God, we have to trust that He is telling us the truth. We can’t invent a different way that we think is better or makes more sense or is more tolerant. And then in verse 26 we have another contrast. He starts by saying, “His voice shook the earth then,” and the “then” is what?
Nikki: At Mt. Sinai.
Colleen: Yeah. And he refers to Exodus 19:18, where it actually says that Mt. Sinai was wrapped in smoke because the Lord had descended on it in fire, the smoke went up like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain trembled greatly. And here in Hebrews we get the added detail that it was His voice that caused the mountain to tremble. Can you imagine those poor Israelites, terrified out of their minds? Not only was there smoke, fire, darkness, whirlwind, and trumpets, but there was a voice that was shaking the earth. That was the presence of God manifesting His power, His glory, His justice, His wrath, and His mercy, although they didn’t fully understand that yet. But then he contrasts that shaking of the earth by saying what’s coming. He has promised, saying what?
Nikki: “Once more I will shake not only the earth, but heaven as well.”
Colleen: And that is a quote from the Book of Haggai. The author is now bringing us along and saying, God shook the earth once, but just as that was a significant shaking, we now have a New Covenant, and the next shaking is going to be even more significant. Now, in 27 he explains it a little more. What does he say that this next “yet once more” is going to include?
Nikki: “‘Yet once more,’ indicates the removal of things that are shaken – that is, things that have been made – in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.”
Colleen: When we look around us, we are living in a physical world. We also see that the Mosaic covenant was very physical, and we’ve talked about this before as we’ve walked through Hebrews, that the New Covenant is based not so much on physical shadows but on spiritual reality, accomplished by the incarnation of God the Son shedding human blood to atone for human sin and reconciling us to God and opening a new and living way to Him. Now, that new and living way to the Father is not a physical phenomenon, it’s a spiritual reality. So the things that are eternal are the things that are not created, they’re eternal, like the eternal kingdom, like the eternal blood of the covenant, like the eternal access to God that we get when we trust Jesus’ blood, our eternal life. The things that cannot be shaken are the spiritual realities that are accomplished through Jesus’ sacrifice, death, and resurrection.
Nikki: I’ve wondered sometimes when I’ve read 27, where it says that things have been made are shaken. I’ve been made, I’ve been created. Does that mean that I could be shaken? And that was something that I’ve had to look closely at.
Colleen: True. And the thing I see here in this passage is that he’s talking about the difference between the world and the solar system as we know it now, in its sinful state, we are not living in the first created Garden of Eden. We’re living in the world that has been created, but that has been tainted with sin. This writer goes on to say, even the kingdom cannot be shaken, and we know that everything that exists comes from God, so I believe that what he’s talking about here is the difference between the physical things that we can see now and the things that are eternal, such as our eternal life, that come as a gift from God. Even our glorified bodies will be eternal gifts from God. And we know that there will be a new heaven and a new earth and that the former things will be burned up, Peter says, as with fire, the elements will be melted. What we see now will be destroyed. What will last will be the eternal things that will come as a gift from God on the basis of what Jesus has done through His blood. What do you see in 28 and 29, Nikki?
Nikki: Well, “Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken.” That supports everything you just said because even the kingdom is created by God, but it has eternal value, and it cannot be shaken. “And so let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.” That’s a high call.
Colleen: Yes, very. And what’s interesting to me is that as believers but still in mortal bodies, which can be shaken and will be done away with, he’s asking us to offer acceptable service, or worship, with reverence and awe. That suggests that we really do have something in us that is eternal because a mortal, broken, condemned-to-death person who is not born again cannot offer proper reverence and awe in their worship. Only someone who knows Jesus can do that. Only someone with a spirit who has been brought to life, birthed by God, can offer acceptable service. This is a confirmation that even though we’re still living in a decrepit, falling-apart body, we have living spirits when we have trusted Jesus and have entered the New Covenant.
Nikki: That’s Romans 8: Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Even our worship, it cannot please God, and if we don’t believe God, if we don’t have faith, faith as Hebrews 11 defines it, if we’re not convicted and assured, then when we approach God, we often do so with so many questions. We question Him, we question His character, maybe we have a picture of God that’s acceptable to us and we dismiss the parts of Him that we don’t agree with, and we come before Him and try to worship on that basis. That is not the fear of God, that’s not worshipful, awe-filled, reverent worship that comes from those who are born again.
Colleen: You know, it’s interesting to me that the cross-references in my NASB study Bible had taken me from this verse to John 4:19-24, where Jesus met the Samaritan woman at the well, and this continues to be one of the passages in Scripture that I think God knew there would be Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses who would come to know Him, and they would need this passage because He said to the woman at the well, “Woman, believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But” – here it is – “the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” That’s acceptable worship.
Nikki: And that verse right there completely defines what it means to worship in spirit. God is spirit. In John 3, “spirit gives birth to spirit.” This is not mood. You don’t worship in the right mood, as I understood spirit to be in Adventism, because if that’s the case, then the text is saying “God is mood,” and we know that’s not true.
Colleen: Or “God is breath,” and we know that can’t be true.
Nikki: Another Adventist interpretation of the text, breath.
Colleen: Acceptable service is a spirit in a born-again person who knows his Savior, who knows God, who is spirit, and honors Him with reverence and awe. What an amazing thing! What an amazing privilege that only those who believe God can actually participate in, along with those angels crying, “Holy, holy, holy.” Then there’s that last verse. It’s not even a full sentence. What does the last verse of this chapter say?
Nikki: “For our God is a consuming fire.”
Colleen: Now, how does this book-end this section that we just looked at? It ends with “acceptable worship in reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire,” speaking to those in the New Covenant, and how did this section begin?
Nikki: It began by a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest, something fearful and terrifying.
Colleen: On a mountain, on a physical mountain. Now we have access to our God, who is a consuming fire. The Israelites didn’t have that access. They only saw an external demonstration of that God who is a consuming fire. They, sinful humans, could see the mountain shaking, could see the mountain blazing. They sensed the power and presence of God. They heard His voice, which terrified them, but they had no way to bridge the gap between their fear and His holiness. Now we do. We have Jesus, who came, who shed His blood, who opened the new and living way, as it said in Hebrews 10:20, to the Father. And when we trust Jesus, we come directly into the presence of God, who is a consuming fire, without fear.
Nikki: I used to think the God of the Old Testament was different from the God of the New Testament, but just this short section shows us God does not change. God changes people.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And that changes how we relate to Him.
Colleen: And all of this change is only accomplished in one specific way, through the incarnation of God the Son, who shed human blood on a cross for human sin, paid the full penalty of human sin, rose from death, and opened a new and living way. So even people who haven’t yet believed can enter into the presence of a holy God, something Israel couldn’t even do. But sinners now can. On the basis of Jesus blood, they can enter the presence of God, who is a consuming fire, and repent. And Jesus’ blood is the thing that makes it possible to approach this consuming fire with confidence, knowing we’ll receive full forgiveness. It’s kind of interesting to me that as born-again believers who’ve been born of God, we love this consuming fire.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: An unbeliever would not say they love God, who is a consuming fire. It’s a fearful thing. We know Him, and we know that the wrath of God has been poured out on His Son when He bled for human sin. And if we’ve trusted Jesus, our sin and God’s wrath against our sin has been paid, and we are left having full access to Him. So if you haven’t trusted Jesus and understood that your sin is either on you or on Him, if you haven’t understood that our God isa consuming fire, and He is just, but He is also merciful, and if you haven’t cast yourself on the mercy of God at the foot of Jesus’ cross, we just ask that you do it.
Nikki: So if you have any questions or comments for us, we love hearing from you. Write to us at formeradventist@gmail.com. Don’t forget to visit proclamationmagazine.com to sign up for our weekly blogs and review past issues of Proclamation! magazine, and follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. And don’t forget to join us next Wednesday as we walk through the last chapter of Hebrews.
Colleen: Thanks for joining us. We’ll see you then.
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