Colleen and Nikki discuss how knowing Jesus and the truth about security fills the last days with anticipation. Transcription by Gwen Billington.
Nikki: Welcome to Former Adventist podcast. I’m Nikki Stevenson.
Colleen: And I’m Colleen Tinker.
Nikki: And we’re just checking in with you again, but before we get started on that, I just want to mention something that was pretty important to me when I first came out of Adventism. So, when I left in 2010, I wasn’t very active on social media yet, and I had heard about the forum that you guys offered on the Former Adventist webpage and decided to join that, and one of the things that I really appreciated about that is how carefully you guys moderated that. Anytime someone had a question, you answered with Scripture, and you took the time to really invest in those conversations, and that means so much when you’re coming out and you have your questions. I think the other thing that was really important for me was having that privacy. I was able to create a name for myself that did not require my full name. There was a public page, but there was also a members only page that required a password, and it was in there that I was able to ask a lot of really important questions, things which I wouldn’t be comfortable discussing on social media where my loved ones could see, because as we all know, when you leave Adventism, when you question Adventism, you find yourself in some pretty tense places with your family and your loved ones. So I just wanted to mention that that forum actually is still available, and while it’s not maybe as user friendly as a social media website, it’s not hard to navigate, and it does afford that privacy, and it does give you access to people who have left Adventism and to the ministry and the teachings of the ministry and to the help that you personally offer, Colleen, so many people who leave and have questions about Scripture. So I would just encourage you, if you don’t have an account on the forum, go to formeradventist.com and sign up for that there. All of the past conversations are archived, but there are also still people on there who would love to connect with you that way.
Colleen: I think one of the benefits of the forum is that we are really careful in screening members, so if people come on with aberrant theological views, even if they’re members, we don’t allow them to teach their aberrant views or to have arguments about them. We actually keep it pretty well and strictly moderated so that Scripture is the only way we answer the questions.
Nikki: So we’ve been talking a little bit about some of the stuff that we had to deal with when we first left Adventism, and we’ve even been getting email and messages from people who have questions that are coming up for them, who’ve been out for a while, that are connected to their history in Adventism, and one of those has been talking about last day events. That’s a hard one. Colleen, when you left Adventism, there was no Life Assurance Ministries yet; correct?
Colleen: Correct.
Nikki: So you didn’t have the kind of help that you offer to a lot of us. How did you come to a place where you were willing to even look at last day things?
Colleen: That’s a really good question. We didn’t know what to do with it at first, and we pretty much ignored it. But the Lord in His mercy put us in a really amazing Bible-teaching church with a pastor who handles Scripture extremely well, unusually well. So over the years he did preach through difficult passages, and in women’s Bible study I also was able to study Revelation and Daniel. The thing that probably did the most for us was just being willing to read those books, read Daniel, read Revelation. And we can actually start cross-referencing those books with other places in Scripture, and the pictures start to fill out. But here’s the thing, what we realized as we left Adventism was that Adventism makes eschatology the core of its “truth.” It’s how you view eschatology in Adventism that determines whether you’re really Adventist or not. You believe that the Sabbath will be the final testing truth for those who are saved, you believe that you’ll be involved in the time of trouble, that you’ll stand without a mediator, you’ll have to run to the hills for protection. None of that is the gospel. Adventism has made something that’s very secondary and perhaps even untrue the core of its religion, whereas Christianity makes the finished work of Jesus and the person of Christ the core. And when you know Jesus and the gospel, all of these other things begin to fall into place. But, you know, you don’t have to have end times figured out. That’s what we had to learn. We had to live with holding these things loosely, knowing we didn’t have all the answers, and asking God to teach us what He knew we needed to know in His time. You have to let go of wanting to have all that gnostic knowledge and let Jesus be enough.
Nikki: That’s really a good point. I know I always understood that Adventism was going to be what rescued the world from hell essentially – well, there was no hell was there? It was the secret information that we had from our prophetess about last day events that was the key to remaining faithful and to becoming safe to save. That’s putting all of our hope on Adventism versus putting it all in Christ, who keeps us to the end.
Colleen: Yeah, that’s so well said. And you know what else? It’s putting the prophetess Ellen White in the place of Scripture. Adventism makes Ellen White’s revelations, even though they’re false revelations, about end times the core that shapes their religion. And anytime you have a religion that’s shaped by something other than Scripture, you have heresy. My appeal to people who’ve come out of Adventism and are wondering what to do with end times is: entrust that to the Lord and ask Him to reveal who Jesus is. Know that you’re safe in Him, know that your salvation is secure, and allow Him to direct your reading of His word so that end times assume their proper place. He lets you know, as time goes on, what you need to know. It’s not the core.
Nikki: Now, with everything going on in our world, a lot of people are being, I want to say re-injured by the spiritual abuse they endured under Adventism because it’s bringing up all of these past teachings. Now, I know that there are, I don’t know if it’s fair to say, only two groups, but I think of two specific groups in my head of Adventists, those who really are obsessed with end time things, and they’re looking to be the one who can expose the secret doctrines that they have, and then there are those who were simply traumatized by all those teachings and traumatized by the end time things and want to be free from that obsession and that fear, and so what would you say to them as they’re walking through this time and all of this stuff is starting to come up, and they haven’t necessarily rooted themselves in biblical teaching about end time things? What would you say to them about the next steps?
Colleen: Well, I would say – now, this is going to sound really simplistic at first, but I would say, begin by reading through the Gospel of John. I am shocked at how much the Gospel of John anchored me in who Jesus actually is. But then, the Gospel of John has some surprising insights into eschatology. You were mentioning one, Nikki, just before we started this podcast that’s found in John 3. Right in the middle of Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus, when he asked how he should be saved, what he needed to know. Do you want to talk about that? Because this verse is – in my book, it’s now one of the key verses to know. You can know if you’re saved, and you can know if you’re lost, and there’s a very clear way to know. You don’t have to know when the time of trouble will come, but you can know certain very specific things that can put your mind at rest.
Nikki: Well, beginning in the early part of John 3, Jesus is having a conversation with Nicodemus, and He’s telling him that no one is going to see the kingdom of God or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again, unless they are born of the Spirit. And He says that God sent Him into the world to save the world, not to judge the world, and those who believe are not judged, but those who do not believe are judged already. That condemnation is already there. And then after this conversation with Nicodemus, John the Baptist is having a conversation with the Pharisees, and he tells them, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” And so we see that before we come to faith, before we believe in Christ, the wrath of God is on us, but once we come to faith in Christ, once we’re born again and truly belong to Him, we are transferred out of this kingdom of darkness and placed into the kingdom of the beloved Son, and the wrath of God no longer remains on us.
Colleen: In fact, John 3:18 has become very precious to me, “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” And what’s so amazing about that is, if we believed in Jesus, we don’t come into judgment. If we haven’t believed, we’re already judged. In other words, we’re born judged. That’s what Ephesians 2:1-3 says, but when we believe, we’re not judged. We can trust that whatever goes on around us, we’re in Him and we’re safe.
Nikki: Yeah, we’ve been taking about that assurance as we’ve been walking through the Book of Hebrews, that once-for-all sacrifice of Christ has justified those who believe, and our position is secure in Him. We see in Romans chapter 5 that “While we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” So we know that we are secure in Him. And up in verse 9 it says, “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God.” So those who belong to God, those who have placed their faith in Christ and who have been placed in Christ no longer need to fear the wrath of God, and I know as an Adventist I sat and I read the Book of Revelation one day, and by the time I completed it, I was literally on the floor of my apartment shaking and crying. I was terrified. I had just read about all of these things God was going to do to the earth, all of this wrath that was going to be poured out on the earth, and I was so afraid. I found myself convicted that I was on the wrong end of that situation. But when I became a believer and I understood my secure position in Christ and I understood that I am kept by God Himself, that I’m kept blameless for the day of the coming of the Lord, and then I read Revelation then? I remember standing in my backyard just worshipping and praising God and glorifying Him for what He has done and what He’s going to do. There’s something about understanding our position in Christ that completely changes the story for us as we look into these things, and understanding that I am not destined for the wrath of God. We read in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the context here is about the Day of the Lord, Paul says, “For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” It does not say, “You might be saved,” and it doesn’t say, “You might escape wrath.” It says that the omnipotent God of the universe did not destine us for wrath but destined us for salvation. So we can knowthat no matter what happens, we are not going to come under the wrath of God.
Colleen: That’s such a great point. I just want to say to all of my fellow former Adventists out there, be willing to let go of your need to know how things will work. We can know that the Lord has saved us when we trust in Jesus, and we can know that we will not come into judgment or experience His wrath. The timing of things, we don’t have to understand fully. But we also don’t have to fear the books of Revelation and Daniel. I believe that it was a special curse of Adventism that those two books became points of fear so deep that as we leave sometimes people become physically ill thinking of reading them. Revelation is the only book of the Bible that promises a blessing for those who read and hear its words. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not the revelation of the destruction of evil or the destruction of the world. It’s the Revelation of Jesus Christ. So I want to encourage you, read the book. Let the Lord teach you, and you know, I can probably guarantee that you won’t have a clear-cut picture of the timing and the exact way everything will look, but here’s the thing about prophecy, God tells us enough so that we can know what the end of the story is, and as things happen we can be reassured by the prophecies and go, “Oh, that’s what He meant!” He gives us enough so that we do not have to live in darkness and fear, but when we know Him, the end is certain. So readRevelation. There’s a blessing in that. And read the Book of Daniel. What an amazing thing to discover that the Book of Daniel is the only prophetic book that tells the story of the Gentile nations and the Jewish nation. I didn’t read Daniel like that as an Adventist, but that’s clearly what it’s doing. So just know that the Lord will reveal His will and His sovereign mercy as you read these books that we were taught to fear.
Nikki: And also know when you go into them that any kind of ideas that you had that were taught to you by Adventism, put them aside and not entertain those at all. Start over, clean slate. Because even though there is disagreement within the Body of Christ about various things, like you’ve mentioned the timing of things, even discussion about the millennium, when that’s going to happen, there is some disagreement by godly, Christian scholars in those areas, but there is none of the Adventist paradigm that fits into any of those various views. It is completely different and completely dependent upon the visions and false teachings of failed date-setting and a false prophet. And so anything that you thought about last-day events, shelve it and go to Scripture and go to trustworthy teachers and be willing to not divide in the Body of Christ over these issues, but know that the story here is completely different and that it is meant to encourage. We’re to encourage each other with the fact that Christ is coming back, not scare each other with it.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: I think it’s right to look around and see what’s happening and wonder if we’re nearing the end. I think it’s the cry of the heart of every believer to constantly be looking for the return of our Lord. I love what Jude wrote to the church. I want to wrap by reading that to you. It’s in Jude, and it begins in verse 17. It says, “But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, ‘In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.’ It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh. Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forevermore. Amen.”
Colleen: Amen.
Nikki: If you have any questions for us about any of this, if you would like to hear from us about any resources we might recommend related to this topic, write to us at formeradventist@gmail.com, and we would be happy to send you a list of those. You can also go to proclamationmagazine.com and find past issues of the print magazine. You can sign up for our weekly blogs, and there’s a donate button there if you’d like to come alongside the ministry financially. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and subscribe if you haven’t yet, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. That helps us with our reach. Thank you for joining us, and don’t forget to join us again for our next walk through the Book of Hebrews.
Colleen: We’ll see you then.
Nikki: Bye.
- Inspecting Adventism’s Beliefs—God the Holy Spirit | 114 - October 17, 2022
- Inspecting Adventism’s Beliefs—Unity in the Body of Christ | 113 - October 17, 2022
- Inspecting Adventism’s Beliefs—The Remnant and Its Mission | 112 - September 7, 2022