Colleen and Nikki talk about four things to know when leaving Adventism. Transcription by Gwen Billington.
Nikki: Welcome to Former Adventist podcast. I’m Nikki Stevenson.
Colleen: And I’m Colleen Tinker.
Nikki: And we’re here again checking in with you during this time of social distancing. Only we’re going to do something a little bit different this week. We know that people are probably tired of hearing about coronavirus and what’s going on, and we’re just going to take a break from that, and we’re going to spend a little bit of time discussing some questions that were emailed to us recently. Colleen, do you want to tell us about that?
Colleen: Sure. We got an email from somebody who listens to the podcast, and this person said that they were ready to leave Adventism, they’ve been deeply involved, but they had four questions before they actually made an official move. They are interesting four questions, so I’m going to read the questions, and we’re just going to talk through them. The writer of the email said they would love to hear these discussed in a podcast, so we’re going to oblige. It just seems like a great break from COVID.
Nikki: Yes. [Laughter.]
Colleen: Here are the four questions: 1) Is there a suggested way of coming out with what I now believe? 2) Is there a suggested order of people I should talk to first? I feel like I need to discuss this with my parents and parents-in-law and my pastor. 3) Should I be prepared to have discussions with all of my friends? What are some topics I should be prepared to discuss? EGW? Investigative Judgment? Sabbath? New Covenant? And 4) How soon should I be finding another church? So, Nikki, why don’t we just go through them one at a time and talk about our own experience with these same kinds of issues as we came out and our convictions about how to handle these things.
Nikki: Sure.
Colleen: I’m just going to re-read the first question: Is there a suggested way of coming out with what I now believe? What would you say, Nikki?
Nikki: This is so hard. Honestly, I was telling you before we started this, it seems there’s not really a one-size-fits-all for how people leave. I would want to start with just encouraging this person to know that God is sovereign, even in this, and that He is going to direct these conversations and the order of these conversations, and He’s going to help you know how to glorify Him in this, and I would say approach this very prayerfully and very humbly before God because you really do have only a short window of time where people will listen to you.
Colleen: That is so true. When we left, we discovered that as we prayed to know how to leave, the Lord seemed to open one door at a time through which we could walk, and it just became less and less complicated to try to get out. As He opened doors and changed circumstances, we were able to walk out one step at a time, and we knew He was leading. I can’t explain how it works. Everybody’s situation is different. But like Nikki said, pray. The Lord will show you. And there is one question that I do get asked sometimes: Should I write a letter? And what should I say? And I would say, when you decide to leave, ask for your membership to be removed. You have to send that letter to your local church because membership is held at the local church, but I would definitely send a copy to the local conference and ask for a confirmation that they have removed your name. Some people write very short letters just saying because of doctrinal differences we’re leaving. Some people use it as an opportunity to state their doctrinal convictions and their belief in Jesus. The Lord will show you what to write, and it sometimes is your one chance to say things to the people in your church that you wanted to know why you left.
Nikki: You know, something else I want to say related to this, “Is there a suggested way of coming out with what I now believe?” The question is not just specifically what is no longer held as a conviction but what I now believe, and I want to say, I wish that when I had had these conversations early on that I had done so with my Bible open with these people because otherwise it becomes a “he said, she said,” “I read this,” “well, what about this,” and if you can put the word in front of them, if they’re willing to sit and listen to you and want to know what you believe now, put the word in front of them, ask them to read the words out loud, and tell them, “This is how I see this,” it’s going to be more convicting because really, it’s Scripture that convicts.
Colleen: And have them read the words. That’s really a powerful thing. Well, what about that second question: “Is there a suggested order of people I should talk to? Who should I talk to first?”
Nikki: I would say that – this is not going to be helpful, I’m sorry, but I would say God knows who you should talk to first. He knows how to put people in front of you, whether you want them there or not. He knows how to convict you. He knows how to bring these conversations up, and you’ll know.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: You have to trust Him in this. And I know that sounds so clichéd, but that means trust Him after the fact as well. Trust Him after the conversations happened and you didn’t get the response you wanted from the people, and you’re tempted to just self-condemn because you weren’t able to convince them. You have to trust God with the order of the conversations, the people He’s bringing in it, and even the outcome.
Colleen: And the thing is, this is new territory for most of us who left Adventism. It’s hard to get into the new biblical reality that God is sovereign, and we are not the determiners of our own fate, and the way we orchestrate things does not determine the outcome. The Lord does know. So if you ask Him to give you opportunities to speak and to put words in your mouth and prepare hearts, He will, and you can trust Him to bring that about, and if you have a conviction that you need to talk to your parents or your parents-in-law, do it, and ask the Lord to bring about that opportunity. He will, and He will let you know who and when. So what about the third question: “Should I be prepared to have discussions with all my friends, and what are some topics I should be prepared to discuss?” [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.] Well, I want to say that 1 Peter 3:15 commands all believers to always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in you.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: We are responsible to know what we believe. We are responsible to be able to explain what we believe to anyone at any given time. But I want to say that we don’t use this as weapons. We’re not weaponizing Scripture. So it’s not our job to convince anybody and to go in with that agenda, but it is our responsibility before God to be able to give an answer for the hope that we have. And obviously, you know, some of the issues that are going to come up are related to the distinctives of Adventism, and if you’re leaving Adventism, then you probably already know how to discuss those issues.
Colleen: And another thing that is important to remember when discussing with an Adventist – now, some Adventists really do want to know, at least for the first few weeks after you leave. It’s interesting, I’ve often said, there’s like a six-month window in which Adventists will come to you and say, “Why did you leave?” and you have a chance to tell them the gospel, and you may even have some meaningful conversations, but that window seems to close after a while, and most people sort of disappear. But in the meantime there are some who are argumentative or some who remainargumentative, and that gets very annoying sometimes. In Titus 3:9 it says to avoid foolish controversies over genealogies and the law and details of theology, and people who are just arguing for the sake of arguing, you can’t win. After all, it’s God who has to change a heart, not us. So if people are argumentative, I tend to leave them alone. Once I explain from Scripture what I believe, if they don’t want to hear it, if they’re not actually dealing with the words of Scripture, I tend to leave it alone. And you’d mentioned earlier, Nikki, your conviction about the “pearls before swine” verses.
Nikki: Yeah. You know, when I first left Adventism, I was so excited about what I had discovered. It was such good news. I mean, it really was good news, and I wanted to tell everybody, and I believed that they would want to know. And I believed that if I showed it to them, they would see what I saw. And so my big surprise was that they didn’t want to know, that they couldn’t see, that sometimes the very verses that convicted me of truth were the verses they were using against truth, and I started to realize that I was taking these treasures and I was putting them down before people who were stomping on them, trampling them underfoot, and then also destroying my joy. Also, I ran into the verse in 2 Corinthians 2:16 that talks about how we’re a fragrance of Christ to God, and to those who are being lost, we’re the stench of death; and to those who are being saved, we’re the fragrance of life. And that made sense of my experience. When I was with believers, we were encouraging each other, and it was just the most incredible, hard-to-explain kind of connection and unity. And then when I was with unbelievers or professing believers who were in a false religion, there was so much hostility. It was like two different realities. I didn’t understand what was happening, but I sure felt it, and I sure experienced the confusion that comes from stepping in and out of these two different worlds, so to speak. So what I realized during that time was that when I pushed back and I thought, “Oh, if I could just get better at convincing them, then maybe they’d understand,” I was pushing them further and further into their resistance and their hostility, to the point where I had some people tell me that my God was a monster. And I was causing them to blaspheme God, and so I had to learn that it wasn’t my job nor my ability to cause these people to understand or be saved. I really had to trust God with their reactions.
Colleen: And I found I had to stop with the arguments about it, to stop trying to present Scripture and explain it to people who were persistently argumentative or refusing to hear, because I was causing them to sin. The more they resisted what I said, the more deeply they became resistant and the more they would actually blaspheme the words of God. I remember the time we had to finally say, we’ll not discuss doctrines of demons in our house anymore with our in-laws. Yes, it’s really important. That “pearls before swine” thing isn’t just a – it’s not an insult. It’s wisdom that says, if you put truth in front of somebody who doesn’t want it repeatedly, they will trample, blaspheme, and become more and more resistant, and we want to stop because we’re causing them to steep themselves in sin. The fourth question: “How soon should I be finding another church?” That’s kind of a tough one.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: I know that’s a tough one because it’s hard to find a good church, and especially when a person is just coming out of Adventism, the worldview is so confused from a biblical worldview that it’s hard even to evaluate a good church. What would you say to a person that asked that, Nikki?
Nikki: That is a hard question because, frankly, it’s hard to find a good church right now. It really is. I would say that Scripture tells us that we are commanded to meet together.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: I would say that a lot of the commands in Scripture require that you’re in the body of Christ. You can’t do what is commanded of us if you’re not with the family of God, and so there is that command. I want to say, more importantly than how soon you find a church is what kind of church you bring your family to. And I would want to say to be sure that they have a very a high view of Scripture.
Colleen: I agree.
Nikki: That they believe that it’s inerrant in its original language.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: That they are very clear about the Trinity.
Colleen: That the gospel is central, the cross of Christ.
Nikki: It has to be, um-hmm.
Colleen: Yeah. And look for a church where the pastor picks up the Bible and exposits the word.
Nikki: Yes.
Colleen: Look for a place where the Scripture is taught, not just good ideas using Scripture as proof texts for good ideas, but where Scripture is taught. And I would say this also to somebody just on the brink of leaving Adventism: There’s so much to unlearn.
Nikki: Yes.
Colleen: Do take advantage of great preaching online that will help you learn what Scripture says. I don’t mean to just promote our pastor, but I do know the quality of his teaching. He’s a great expositor.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: And he has helped so many former Adventists start to understand a biblical perspective as opposed to an Adventist one. One place you can find his sermons is to go to redeemerlomalinda.com, and all of the sermons from our church are online there. You’ll find a wealth of sermons that will just be expositing Scripture and helping you understand what the word actually says. I can also recommend John MacArthur at Grace to You. Do you have some others you’d like to recommend, Nikki?
Nikki: You know, I like Steve Lawson. He’s good. John Piper has some good stuff.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: I know you like S. Lewis Johnson.
Colleen: Yeah. He’s dead, but his sermons are really good. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.] Just these guys who teach Scripture. And you know – like we’ve heard it said before, you know it when you hear it. You know when they’re teaching Scripture. It’s in front of you, you’re reading it –
Colleen: Yeah.
Nikki: – you’re seeing it, they’re saying it, and the Spirit confirms it. That’s a really important key to a healthy church because it’s very easy to find yourself in a church that is full of self-help, topical moralism.
Colleen: And you want just Scripture. And one more name I’d throw out there, another one who is dead but whose preaching remains alive online, is Dr. J. Vernon McGee. As Elizabeth Inrig once said, you can’t go wrong with Dr. McGee. He’s just a great through-the-Bible teacher, and you can’t go wrong with Dr. McGee.
Nikki: And you know, I do want to say, I feel bad that some of my reactions to these questions are like all about preparing for the worst, but I can only speak from my experience, and it was a surprising one, and I don’t think it was all that unique, but I do want to say, as you do find another church, be patient with the Christians there. Be very, very patient with them because Adventism has done a very thorough job of deceiving the church. They have done a fantastic job of looking evangelical, of minimizing the major distinctives between Adventism and the Christian church, and so people may not understand your context, they may not understand your background, and that has been a point of frustration for many, many formers. You know, like you said, I don’t mean to promote us, but this ministry has been a huge source of support for people who are integrated into the body of Christ but have a harder time unpacking their worldview, or it’s easy to kind of feel a little crazy when people minimize where you came from, and so it’s good to stay connected with people who have walked through this and who can support you and help you. But just be patient with them.
Colleen: Knowing that just as Adventism has deceived the Christian community, it has deceived us as well. And it takes time, actually it takes years of immersing ourselves in Scripture, listening to it taught well, reading it, praying, asking the Lord to teach us, for our own heads to come to the place where we can see what’s real. We have so many triggers when we leave, and we think we understand, but the fact is we pretty much have to unlearn everything, but God is faithful. He teaches us. His word is there for us. One last thing I’d like to make sure to say clearly: As you’re leaving, make it a point not to listen to Adventist teaching, and don’t read anything written by Adventists for a couple of years at least, maybe longer, because the minute you do, the minute you go back into Adventism and try to understand what they teach so you can counteract it, it will draw you in with confusion because you’ve been pre-wired to respond to the Adventist arguments. I used to find that I could be thrown right back into confusion and doubt. And we finally had to agree in our home that we would not listen to Adventist things or read Adventist things for several years as the Lord rewired our brains and taught us what was true. It sounds extreme, but once you know that it’s a false religion, you have to let it go. I think about those Ephesians in Acts 19 who burned their books of magic. They didn’t go back to them as references, they burned them and let the Bible be their only source of input.
Nikki: And the fact of the matter is if you live your life with sola scriptura, you will arrive at truth without the help of anything.
Colleen: Yeah.
Nikki: And I remember asking my husband, “What if we’re wrong? What if we’re wrong?” And he said, “Nikki, if we’re supposed to be Adventists, the Bible will lead us back to Adventism.” And so tell your family when they argue with you, when they send you sermons, when they ask you to explain websites or whatever, tell your family to trust you with God and allow you to be sola scriptura, and put that distance between those arguments.
Colleen: Very good advice.
Nikki: So if you have any questions for us, we invite you to write to us at formeradventist@gmail.com. We would love to read those and perhaps spend a little time talking about them during these check-in podcasts over the next couple of weeks.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: You can write to us there, and you can also visit proclamationmagazine.com to subscribe to our weekly blogs or to see back issues of the print magazine. We’d also love it if you’d follow us on Facebook and on Instagram, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts, and don’t forget to join us on Wednesdays as we walk through the book of Hebrews and discuss the New Covenant.
Colleen: Thanks for being with us.
Nikki: Bye.
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