Colleen and Nikki talk with Adriana and Audrey about their experiences with Adventism and former Adventists. Podcast was published February 5, 2020. Transcription by Gwen Billington.
Nikki: Hi, and welcome to Former Adventist podcast. I’m Nikki Stevenson.
Colleen: And I’m Colleen Tinker.
Nikki: Today we have a very special episode for you guys. We’re excited about it. We have two of our friends, Adriana Toma, and Audrey Tinker, who are sitting here with us, and neither one of these ladies has ever been Adventist. They’re going to share a little bit today about how they’ve come to understand Adventism. A couple weeks ago we had a podcast special. We talked about the Former Adventist Fellowship Conference and how important it’s been to us to have Christians come alongside us and care enough to understand what Adventism is and how they can minister to formers, and these are two ladies who have been a big part of that for us.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: So we’re excited for you to get to hear from them today.
Colleen: Yes. Audrey Tinker is my daughter-in-law, I’m proud to say, and she’s here with baby Gwen, who is actually getting some grandpa time while we record. [Laughter.] And Adriana, you didn’t grow up here. You grew up in – tell us where you grew up, and tell us your background in Christianity.
Adriana: I grew up in Romania. I grew up in an evangelical family. My family had the Bible as their source.
Colleen: You grew up in Communist Romania.
Adriana: Yes. Yes.
Colleen: Okay. So how did church work?
Adriana: We had house churches. Actually, the church was in our house.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Adriana: After the Communist regime fell, we built an actual church.
Colleen: Oh, interesting. So was Christianity actually illegal?
Adriana: They had some churches.
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Adriana: It was not totally illegal, but in schools they taught that there is no God.
Colleen: Okay. Interesting. So what about you, Audrey? What was your religious background?
Audrey: I grew up in a conservative evangelical Christian home where Scripture was taught, and my parents were big on teaching us discernment on what was true and what was false.
Colleen: That’s a pretty rare legacy, actually. What experience has your family had in having to stand for truth? Adriana had a family who was evangelical in Communist Romania. What about you? Did you ever have a line in the sand that you had to stand firm on?
Audrey: A few years ago we were attending a church where things were starting to change doctrinally.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Audrey: There were some things that were being taught that we knew we couldn’t apply to our lives or believe in, so we ended up leaving that church.
Colleen: That’s hard.
Audrey: It was. It was a source of income for our family, and it was also – all of our friends were there.
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: So, you know, they asked the question, “Why did you leave?” and you’d have to say that they weren’t teaching truth anymore.
Colleen: There’s a lot of similarity between that and what we’ve had to do.
Nikki: Yeah. And I know, Adriana, your family has had to pay a price for following truth. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Adriana: Well, after we built a church, they started to teach that you can lose your salvation, so my father had to leave the church for that reason.
Colleen: Because he believed that you can’t; right?
Adriana: Yes. We truly believe that you cannot lose your salvation.
Colleen: That’s really an interesting thing. Now, was he teaching the church?
Adriana: Yes. Yes.
Colleen: So they no longer allowed him to do that?
Adriana: Yes.
Nikki: Did this understanding of the security of the believer come from his own reading of the Word or was there some other influence in his life?
Adriana: It was his reading of the Word, yes.
Nikki: It’s pretty clear, huh? [Laughter.]
Adriana: We thought so. [Laughter.]
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: We did an episode of the podcast last week where we talked about the security of the believer, and when you really look at Scripture, it’s very clear.
Nikki: And I really do believe that when people depart from that teaching, it’s because of the influence of religious tradition. It’s not because of Scripture.
Colleen: That’s right. I agree. How did you ladies learn about Adventism? Did you encounter Adventism in Romania?
Adriana: We did have an SDA church in Romania, in my city. I knew a few people that left, actually, the evangelical church to join the Seventh-day Adventist church.
Colleen: Do you know who influenced them or how they were influenced? Did you have any idea of that?
Adriana: I don’t.
Colleen: Because, just understanding Adventist “evangelism” or proselytizing, I know that they come armed with their proof texts, as if they know what Scripture teaches, and evangelicals, Christians who are not grounded in the Word, can be deceived.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: This might be a good time to bring up what you were saying earlier, Nikki, about the video we watched from Amazing Facts last week.
Nikki: Oh, yeah. We did mention that, I believe, in one of our recent podcasts, that one Sunday afternoon we watched Doug Batchelor and Amazing Facts, and he gave in I think it was seven sections he talked about last day events. You know, according to the Adventist tradition – and Adriana was there with us watching that, and it’s always fun to watch people who have never been Adventist [laughter] see what we grew up in. He did hold a Bible in his hands the entire time, didn’t he? And he did share some scriptures in the beginning, but it was really just, it seems like, to hook you –
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: – into what he’s about to say, because then he went on to talk about what was going to happen in the future, none of which is in Scripture.
Adriana: More of Amazing Lies.
Nikki: Yeah. [Laughter.] Exactly.
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Audrey: [Laughter.]
Colleen: What did you think of that video, Adriana? How did that impress you?
Adriana: Well, I think it can be very deceiving, especially since in the beginning he sounded right. He always had a verse for whatever he was saying, so it was convincing, but once he got to the real predictions or –
Colleen: Right.
Adriana: It was wrong! There were just verses pulled out of context to prove his point, but that’s it.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: And he never admitted he was Adventist.
Adriana: He never mentioned that.
Nikki: Uh-uh.
Colleen: Right. Right. And that is their trick. They will not identify themselves, so that other Christians who see this will think he’s a Christian and will feel free to listen more. Audrey, how did you become aware of Adventism? What’s your personal background with them?
Audrey: I only knew a little growing up. I knew they had some different beliefs. They worshipped on a different day. They probably had some different food laws and things that I would not adhere to, but I didn’t really know what they truly believed until I was in high school and I started coming in contact with formers at my church and starting to hear their stories and then doing some personal research on the background and going to the conference –
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: – and different ones, learning how it started, and they started with the Millerites –
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: – in the same movement where the Mormons came out of, and that’s a huge red flag.
Colleen: And the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Audrey: And the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So after learning about that and then getting to know the people in my church more who came out and then also living in the Adventist community, working for an Adventist and living in Loma Linda for a few years, all of those combined, I definitely have a better understanding of what’s going on.
Colleen: Can you talk a little bit about your experience working with Adventists? What did you see up close and personal that you might not have known if you hadn’t had that interaction?
Audrey: I definitely observed that they had a strong sense that education is extremely important, which we all would agree is important.
Colleen: Sure.
Audrey: But they have it to a sense of pride.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Audrey: If your child did not go to the right academy, you were looked down on.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Audrey: If they did not go to the right Adventist college. If you were going to pick a career that was not on their top 10 list –
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Audrey: – you were going to get the stink eye, as it were. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.] Yes. I remember that.
Audrey: This is a funny story. Sad as well. I had a family come in, and they were talking about what they were going to be for Halloween, and the little boy said he wanted to be a nurse, and the Mom said, “No, you’re not. You’re going to be a doctor.”
Colleen: [Gasps.]
Nikki: Oh!
Adriana: Oh!
Audrey: And she would not let him be a nurse for Halloween because it was beneath him.
Colleen: Whoa.
Nikki: Wow.
Adriana: Okay.
Audrey: I know not all the families are like that, but there is a cultural sense of if you are not in the medical field or certain professions, you are not going to be in the in-crowd.
Colleen: That’s very true. And it’s interesting, because not everybody who’s never been Adventist actually picks that up about Adventism.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: But it shapes them.
Audrey: Something else I observed is that they were a bit two-faced sometimes. They would be very happy to see each other, and then when someone would leave the room there were negative comments, talking a lot behind their back. Or you’d go to social gatherings with them where they would say, “Oh, you know, you’re not supposed to drink or say these things,” and then we’d go out, and there was drinking and cursing and inappropriate jokes and such. They were not practicing what they were preaching.
Colleen: That sounds so familiar.
Nikki: Yeah, that’s the fruit of false religion. That is moralism at work.
Colleen: Yes!
Nikki: The evidence of a heart that has not been changed by the gospel, but they are striving to meet a mark, meet a standard.
Colleen: Great point about moralism. Moralism is not the gospel.
Nikki: Uh-uh.
Adriana: Uh-uh.
Colleen: Adriana, were there any characteristics among Adventists that might have been misleading or that looked differently the more you’d get to know them?
Adriana: Well, what you always hear about them is that they are very nice people. So people assume, since they are nice people, they have a good teaching –
Colleen: Oh, that’s such a good point.
Adriana: – but the two don’t go together.
Colleen: You know, that’s moralism again, isn’t it?
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Adriana: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Yeah. Living for a standard that’s external instead of a transformation that the Lord has done inside.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: What would you ladies say, how do Adventists react to you when they know that you’re Christian but not one of them? Do they try to make you feel like them? Do they treat you like you’re not one of them? Do they –
Audrey: They didn’t treat me any differently than their own. They would say that I was, you know, a believer, I believed most of the same things –
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Audrey: – I, you know, lived a pretty conservative life, so I wasn’t, you know, going around being crazy, that I could be one of them. I even was told by my Adventist doctor that I worked for, after talking about – I was going to be healthier, and we were talking about, you know, how I didn’t like going to the movies, just because it was too crowded or whatever, and he was like, “Oh, you’d be such a great Adventist!”
Colleen: [Laughter.] I used to say that about people. I blush to admit. Adriana and Audrey, how would you say your understanding of Adventism and Adventists has changed over the years, and what do you think Christians need to know about Adventism?
Adriana: What they have to understand is that they don’t teach the Bible. They have a false prophet, which they follow, and the Bible is not the truth that they stand on. It’s just a way of justifying what they believe by picking and choosing verses that fit their narrative.
Colleen: Yes. Exactly. That’s so true. The proof texting can sound very convincing, and things like that Amazing Facts video, he threw out a lot of references to Scripture.
Adriana: I don’t know how much he used Ellen White in his speech, but he never said her name.
Colleen: Right.
Adriana: He would say where he found the verse in the Bible, or the verse is found in the Bible –
Colleen: Right.
Adriana: – but he would not reference anything about Ellen White.
Nikki: She never came up.
Colleen: No. No, never. And everything he said was from her great controversy worldview.
Nikki: Yeah. Yeah, it was.
Colleen: And he knew it.
Nikki: Yeah, and he actually was talking about end time events. He spoke about the laws that would be passed where Christians would go and kill those who keep the commandments of God, but interestingly, Sabbath-keeping never once came up. That was intentional.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Because that’s a huge doctrine in Adventism. They’re very slippery, very sneaky.
Colleen: Yes.
Adriana: But if you knew the Bible, it was clear –
Nikki: – clearly wrong.
Adriana: Wrong, yes.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Adriana, that is such a great point, and I just – we’ve said this before on this podcast, but I want to say this again – Christians have to know Scripture.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: It’s not enough to say, “Oh, I know what the gospel is and I believe in Jesus.” You have to know Scripture because Adventism and other cults and other false teachings, even that creep into evangelicalism, can be deceptive and lead you off course if you don’t know.
Nikki: And you have to be a Berean.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: I mean, that might sound different, but I know Christians who know Scripture through sermons.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: You really need to just read the Bible, just read the Bible, because when you know the words clearly, like your father, Adriana –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – you can walk away from everything you know when you know what truth is, just from reading the Bible. I mean, that’s just really important. It’s going to protect you.
Colleen: Scripture is a protection.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Audrey: And studying it in context.
Colleen: Yes, thank you.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Audrey: So many people just read a verse here, a verse there and apply it to their lives when it may not apply to them.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: That’s a great point, and that was a shock to me. As an Adventist I was taught everything the Bible promised anybody was good for me. And context is everything.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Audrey: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Not every promise to just anybody does apply to me. You know, God’s promise to Abraham that he would have a son from a wife who was barren cannot to me, for a lot of reasons.
Audrey: [Laughter.]
Adriana: [Laughter.]
Colleen: But I don’t have a barren wife, so that promise is not for me. [Laughter.]
Nikki: Proper hermeneutic is something that’s been very important to your family growing up. I know you were taught very well how to handle Scripture, how to look at Scripture, that words matter. And one of the things that I personally learned from your mother is when you talk about the things of God, you use the words of the Bible, you don’t make words up. We talked a little bit about the Adventist phrasing, “righteousness by faith.”
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Not a biblical phrase.
Colleen: Not a biblical phrase.
Nikki: There are so many things that Christians across the board say. You just won’t find it in Scripture. So that hermeneutic, that understanding what you’re looking at and who it was written for is so important for protecting –
Audrey: Exactly.
Nikki: And I know, Audrey, that’s been one of the blessings working alongside you at our church in Sunday school is your emphasis with those kids: “Who is this written to?”
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: You know, “Who does this apply to? What is it saying about God?” Asking those questions. Christians really need to help their kids and learn themselves how to do this to protect themselves from these “Amazing Lies,” as you put it, that are on TV.
Collectively: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Audrey, what would you say Christians need to understand about Adventism, from your experience with them?
Audrey: One of the main things, I think, that Christians really need to understand is that they use the same words as we do, often, but they have different meanings.
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: The definitions are completely different. So when I say, “I love Jesus,” and they say, “I love Jesus,” it’s a different Jesus.
Colleen: Oh, great point.
Audrey: I don’t believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel, for example.
Nikki: Right.
Colleen: Right.
Audrey: Or even the Holy Spirit. You guys did a podcast talking about breath and life. There are so many biblical definitions that they have changed.
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: So when someone is coming out of any cult, but particularly Adventism, where the words are so jumbled –
Colleen: Similar, yeah.
Audrey: – similar and –
Colleen: Redefined.
Audrey: Exactly.
Colleen: Yeah.
Audrey: They need to understand that they have to re-learn definitions, and they may not even know.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Audrey: They need to know a new Jesus.
Colleen: That’s true.
Audrey: And even if they know all the verses about Jesus, they need to look at them with different eyes.
Colleen: Yeah. That’s a great point. For example, we’ve had Christians say to us, “Well, I have an Adventist neighbor, and he’s such a nice person! And he says he loves Jesus, and he says he doesn’t have to keep the Sabbath to be saved. I think he really knows Jesus.” I basically say, “You know what? Adventists are taught to say they don’t have to keep the Sabbath to be saved. You really need to ask them can you lose salvation if you give Sabbath up?” And that kind of reveals where they think Sabbath is in the stream of things. The finished work of Jesus is not a concept they understand.
Audrey: Something else that I observed about Adventism: It’s so controlling. Extremely controlling.
Colleen: Interesting.
Audrey: So all the laws that are not in Scripture that Ellen White came up with and had other people influence her, she applies them to the Adventist community. They are not found in Scripture, and they control your whole life.
Colleen: That’s a great point.
Audrey: What you wear, you can’t wear earrings. Or what you can do, you can’t do this on the Sabbath. What you eat, you can’t have this, or you can’t have meat, you can’t have vinegar. All these things. You can’t have caffeine. Every minute of your day is controlled by these rules that the Lord does not put upon us.
Colleen: That is a great point.
Audrey: If you contrast it with the freedom in Christ, we can do many things that are not sinful, of course, but we can wear many things, we can eat everything, and it’s okay, and we can do it and glorify the Lord because we have His gift of freedom in our lives.
Colleen: That’s right. And we have His Spirit residing in us when we’ve trusted His finished work.
Audrey: Exactly.
Colleen: So I’d like to ask you a question. What are your reflections as you reflect back on having helped with the Former Adventist conferences? What stands out in your minds about the Former Adventist conferences? Adriana, you’ve helped a lot with just serving the food and making sure it’s all there, and you’ve kind of sat in on some of the meetings. And Audrey, you’ve been part of a lot of things, the food prep, slides, just the tech, so I’d love to have your comments.
Audrey: Something I’ve noticed about a lot of the people who are attending the conferences, they are truth-seekers. They are looking for answers. They know something’s wrong, they know they’ve been deceived, and they don’t know where to go, so they go to this conference, or they go there to learn what is true and have a safe place to ask their questions, and they have a lot of questions, which is a good sign.
Colleen: Yeah, that’s true, they do.
Audrey: If you have someone coming out of a false religion and they’re not asking questions, I’d be concerned.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: True. How about you, Adriana?
Adriana: I agree with Audrey. I think it’s very sweet to see people coming to learn the truth.
Colleen: Yeah.
Adriana: They take time out of their schedule to fly here sometimes, drive here, just so that they learn the truth and to be in the company of people that have been deceived, and they can learn together.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: So based on what you guys see when you’re there, what encouragement would you have for a questioning Adventist or a former Adventist who hasn’t had the courage to make that journey yet, to come to a conference?
Audrey: I would just say come and see. Come and see what the people are like. They’re not angry, they’re not bitter, they’re not bashing Adventism, and they’re trying to get to what the truth is.
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: And that means putting off the old, the false teachings, and putting on the new true teachings.
Colleen: Like we talked about last week, the graveclothes, helping undo the graveclothes –
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: – on people who’ve heard the gospel.
Audrey: And it’s a safe place to ask your questions.
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: No one’s going to be looking at your thinking there’s a weird, funny question.
Colleen: Oh, yeah.
Audrey: There’s people you can talk to one-on-one, you can talk in a group, you can just sit and observe and be quiet, but if you are questioning, I’d really encourage you to come.
Colleen: That’s actually interesting to hear from someone who’s never been Adventist. It’s encouraging.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Audrey: I’d actually encourage believers to come, because so many times they think, “Well, you know, it’s not that bad of a cult.” You know, they’ll go a meeting on learning about Islam, but they won’t go to a meeting learning about Adventism.
Colleen: Excellent point.
Nikki: Yeah, that’s true.
Audrey: And that personally upsets me, because they are equally evil and against the Lord, and you need to know what’s going on in Christendom to be better prepared to help others and keep your family safe.
Colleen: That’s a great point.
Adriana: And you can have fellowship with sisters and brothers in Christ that have gone through the same things that you have.
Audrey: Exactly.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Adriana: And they have, most likely, most of the questions that you have.
Colleen: Similar questions. There’s a common thread of understanding.
Nikki: It’s normalizing.
Colleen: Yes, that’s the word.
Nikki: It’s very normalizing. When you have Christians who take the time to understand Adventism, like you said, Audrey, they’re able to be there at those conferences and help the Adventists with their questions. I remember my very first conference, one of the most impacting moments for me was when I was speaking with Christians who had never been Adventist, and I asked them, “How could a loving God send people to hell?” And one of the ladies turned and looked at me, and she looked hurt almost, like – I don’t mean that in the way we’re accused of –
Colleen: Like, personally hurt, yeah.
Nikki: – but just, like, surprised and she said, “How could a loving God not?” And just being confronted with the idea that God’s justice is love, that’s a new concept for an Adventist.
Colleen: Yeah, Adventists don’t learn that.
Nikki: Uh-uh. So those kinds of interactions. They’re important, they’re powerful.
Colleen: They are. Nikki, would you tell the story of the conference at the end, when the Christian man approached you in tears.
Nikki: He was a gentleman that had been attending that church for a long time. He came over to me at the end of the conference. I think that was his first conference he’d gone to.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And he just wrapped his arms around me. He had tears in his eyes, and he said, “I had no idea. I had no idea what you guys have been through,” and he just gave me a big hug, and it was overwhelming to both of us. That he –
Colleen: He could have been your grandpa; right?
Nikki: Yes, oh yeah.
Colleen: Um-hmm. Yeah.
Nikki: I definitely feel affection for him that way, and he is a very loving man, and we were both moved. I was moved by the fact that he cared. I mean, he cared. To see Christians care about those who have been lost and to rejoice when they’ve been found, that’s new. That’s really new.
Colleen: Yes. And that man still comes to our conferences every year.
Nikki: He’s a big supporter.
Colleen: He’s a dear brother.
Audrey: There are a few things that I think that believers really need to know about those who are coming out of a cult. The first thing is these are very smart, gifted, intelligent people. They were not deceived because of their lack of intelligence.
Colleen: That’s a great point.
Audrey: They were deceived because they could not see, they were blind, they were not saved. So if you have someone in your congregation who is coming out of a cult and they start asking questions and they start talking about their background, be careful that you don’t think that you’re better than them. Because it’s so easy, “Well, I wouldn’t be deceived.” It’s like, you don’t know. The Lord brings people to Himself in many different ways, and yours may have been growing up in a Christian home and others may be coming out of a cult.
Colleen: That’s true.
Audrey: So I really encourage people to have compassion and learn about the cult or the false religion that your brother or sister is coming out of so that you can be better equipped to deal with their questions, because so many people do not know about Adventism. They know about Islam, they know about the Mormons –
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: – they know about other things, but Adventism is so – because it’s so sneaky and they are very good at hiding what they truly believe, it can definitely deceive a lot of believers.
Colleen: I’m so glad you said that because that has been a frustration point over the years with Christians.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Actually, we’ve had Christians confront us when we’ve talked to them about having come out of Adventism, and actually, we’ve had Christians kind of take us to task, like “Why did you leave them? What was wrong with that?” And then not actually wanting to hear when we had questions. It’s been a problem sometimes even in Bible studies, to be asking questions that the Christians don’t understand, and they get nervous because they think the former Adventist is saying something about their beliefs, as if they’re trying to teach it, and that’s not the case.
Audrey: And they should be so encouraged if they’re asking questions.
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: They really should.
Nikki: And you know, sometimes I think the questions can be misunderstood.
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: Um-hmm.
Nikki: Because definitions are different and because we were taught the Bible inappropriately –
Audrey: Exactly.
Nikki: – and then you go into a Bible study and somebody’s teaching a passage that you learned a certain way –
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Audrey: Um-hmm.
Nikki: – and you have a question. It might even be phrased as, “Yeah, but what about…?” you know, or “I thought…,” or maybe even you’re just talking about the Bible and you quote it how you understood it, and it’s wrong, and it can be interpreted as a rebellious person who’s there to make trouble.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: So to give them that space.
Colleen: To question them further, to find out what their concern really is.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Because I think Christians often don’t understand a former Adventist’s questions at first.
Audrey: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Great point, Audrey.
Audrey: Something else that I think Christians sometimes struggle with when they are dealing with Adventism is because they have a big influence in the health community, they often are thinking that they can’t be as bad as you say –
Colleen: Oh, that’s a great point.
Audrey: – or that they hear about because they have hospitals, they have clinics, they are actually helping people. I had a family member there who had a severe heart attack, and he was saved by those Adventist doctors –
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: – and had wonderful treatment there. But like Adriana said, you’re not saved because of your good works.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Right.
Audrey: Anyone can do good works. That’s God’s gift to man. The common grace of God –
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: – to humanity is that you can have people doing good things. You cannot base your opinion of them based off of their works.
Colleen: That’s right.
Audrey: Lastly, I think believers really need to understand that people coming out of cults often have a background of abuse.
Colleen: Oh, that is so important to remember.
Audrey: And if they don’t understand that, they are going to have a hard time interacting with them and getting to help them properly because they have a lot to unpack, not just from learning new doctrines and putting off old false doctrines, but also dealing with physical hurts, emotional hurts, mental things that they’ve had to deal with because they were being manipulated –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Audrey: – and kept in a system where they were said that doing these things was okay.
Nikki: Yeah, being in a cult is psychological trauma. I mean, it just – it is. Even if your family was fine, and I just have to say, I’m not sure I’ve met a former Adventist yet who didn’t have some kind of issues in their home.
Colleen: I agree. I agree.
Nikki: But just the religion on its –
Audrey: – on its own is terrible.
Nikki: – is abuse.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Audrey: And then so many people do have the physical side as well that I don’t think is talked about enough in true Christian circles. These are real issues. These are real hurt people who have a lot of things to unpack.
Colleen: It is kind of moving to me, Audrey, to hear you say all this because most Christians don’t understand this.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: It marks us, and it makes us a little nervous to talk about ourselves in front of Christians. We kind of pick our audiences sometimes.
Nikki: And I want to say too, what you’re saying is so insightful, I have to say most former Adventists don’t know right at the beginning –
Colleen: That’s true.
Nikki: – that they do carry trauma or that they have been abused or that any of this stuff is a part of their story because we haven’t seen healthy life modeled. We have seen –
Audrey: It can’t be.
Nikki: Yeah. We’ve seen a façade modeled. I don’t know how else to put it.
Colleen: That’s true.
Nikki: It took me some time to understand what was going on with me.
Audrey: A bad tree is going to bear bad fruit.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Yes, exactly. And so there are a lot of trust issues. It’s a scary thing.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Audrey: And some will say, “Well, you know, you’re over-exaggerating the amount of abuse cases.” I’ve met dozens and dozens of formers, and maybe one or two has not had a physical abuse –
Colleen: Right.
Audrey: – put upon them by someone in a religious position over them, either it be their father or their parents. It could be a pastor, it could be an elder.
Colleen: Yes. It’s common.
Audrey: It’s very, very common.
Colleen: Um-hmm. You’re absolutely right. I’ve often said, since coming out, Jesus is gracious to show us who He is, but once He shows us who He is, He continues to show us the truth about our own lives, and that’s necessary in order to learn to trust Him at deeper and deeper levels and to treat each other with compassion, love, and trust among ourselves. It is a truth that the abuse is real in a cult, and coming out, understanding that and admitting it is a hard step.
Audrey: Um-hmm.
Nikki: Which is an important thing to point out because a lot of Adventists will say we left because we were hurt. Just about every former Adventist I know left because of doctrine.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: They didn’t even know what they had endured –
Colleen: That’s right.
Nikki: – until they’d left for Jesus, come to faith, submitted to Scripture, and been a part of the body of Christ and been able to see the difference, the contrast.
Colleen: Yes. It is shocking to see.
Nikki: And that’s where you begin to see, “Wait a minute…”
Colleen: That is so insightful. I’m glad you brought that up, Audrey. Anything, Adriana, that you would want to say to your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ about Adventism?
Adriana: I would say try to learn as much as you can about what they believe so you can understand their questions, so you know how to help them and to understand them. They were deceived, and they lived that lifestyle for a long time. I mean, it’s a generational thing.
Colleen: It felt normal.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Adriana: For Christians, just try to learn what they believed so you can help them. They need us.
Colleen: And we do.
Nikki: And I’d like to know too what you guys would say to Christians who have been pulled into Adventism. What do they need to know that they may not know?
Audrey: I think they really need to know the history.
Colleen: Oh, interesting.
Audrey: Learning the beginnings of something can be very helpful because it’s going to set the trajectory for everything else. There’s a really good recording of one of the sessions of the conferences a few years ago called “Roots, Shoots, and Those in Cahoots.”
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: I’d really encourage people to look at that. You can do your own research too. It’s factual.
Colleen: Yes.
Audrey: This is how it began. You have false teachers from the beginning, shooting off, breaking into other cults, not just Adventism, from the same root, as it were.
Colleen: From the same root.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Adriana: Truth matters, and they have to understand that they don’t teach the truth. They have their own truth, but they don’t have the truth.
Colleen: Great point. And what is the truth? That’s not a trick question. [Laughter.]
Collectively: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Jesus said –
Collectively: “I am the Truth” –
Colleen: – “the Way, and the Life.”
Nikki: And speaking of the truth, which doctrine in Adventism was the most surprising to you, a unique Adventist doctrine?
Adriana: About Jesus.
Nikki: Which thing?
Adriana: Well, the fact that He didn’t finish the work. As a believer you believe that He finished the work, and on that basis we believe in Him. So that’s the biggest one for me.
Colleen: Yeah.
Audrey: After finally understanding more of what the Investigative Judgment teaches – that’s rather complicated –
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Audrey: – but the thought that Christ is sitting in heaven, you know, is going down lists of names and looking at every single deed that they have done is absolutely shocking, opposed to saying – instead of the Father looking at you and saying, “My Son was enough,” and embracing you, it’s a huge falsehood to think that the Lord is just sitting there looking at your whole life and saying, “You weren’t good enough, you weren’t good enough, you weren’t good enough. Oh, you were sort of good, maybe – I don’t know, you probably won’t get there, but keep trying.” It’s absurd.
Adriana: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Oh, and it’s devastating to be an Adventist believing that.
Nikki: Yeah.
Audrey: Oh, it’s scary! I’d be scared out of my mind, thinking that at any moment my name could come up.
Colleen: Uh-huh, I was terrified.
Nikki: And another fear that Adventists have that you guy have been exposed to hearing the formers talk is the fear that they are going to be hunted and killed in the last days, by Christians no less, because of their Sabbath-keeping. We have a lot of people who had nightmares growing up, even practiced running from Christians in – they still do, in Adventist camps, they do in academies, boarding schools, so you have a lot of trauma there, from experiencing that growing up. What were your thoughts when you heard that this was something that Adventists are actually taught?
Audrey: It was a bit shocking. We are not taught in Christianity that we are supposed to go out and hunt anybody. [Laughter.]
Collectively: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Right.
Audrey: Let along, you know, someone because they’re keeping a day. We’re called to go out and preach the gospel and die if that’s the Lord’s will to get His word out there and His truth. We’re not called to go and persecute others. We’re the ones who are being persecuted. We’re dying every day around the world for His kingdom.
Colleen: What about you? What did you think, Adriana?
Adriana: Honestly, I thought, “I wonder where did they find this in the Bible?”
Collectively: [Laughter.]
Adriana: Because I couldn’t! [Laughter.]
Colleen: And you know what? Back to basics.
Adriana: Yeah.
Colleen: There you go. It’s not in Scripture.
Audrey: It’s made up.
Colleen: It’s made up, totally. Interesting.
Audrey: I think some of the food laws definitely shocked me, as you know, first hearing those are the ones you probably hear about first when you’re talking with formers, about you know, eating bacon for the first time. It’s like whoa! [Laughter.]
Collectively: [Laughter.]
Audrey: But things that I never had to deal with, but you know, no vinegar? What is this? Or even clothing. You can’t have your ears pierced? You can’t wear a belt? This is –
Colleen: Yeah.
Audrey: I mean, they’re almost silly.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Audrey: But because the Adventist prophet said it, it goes. But like Adriana said, “Where is that in Scripture?” It’s very controlling, and it’s very confusing at the same time.
Colleen: Yeah. That’s a good way to put it.
Adriana: And it’s just the outward behavior.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Adriana: It doesn’t have anything to do with your heart.
Colleen: That’s a great point.
Audrey: Most of these legalistic doctrines have nothing to do with your character.
Colleen: That’s right.
Audrey: If anything they promote bad character.
Nikki: That’s actually true.
Colleen: Yeah, it is.
Nikki: Yeah.
Adriana: Yeah.
Colleen: Well, I want to thank both of you, Audrey and Adriana, for being with us today. It was really fun for me to hear you talk about this and very encouraging. Even though I know you and we have conversations often, hearing you say some of the things you said made me emotional and made me feel really supported in a way that I didn’t even realize I needed to feel. So thank you for speaking the truth and telling honestly what you thought.
Audrey: Thanks for having us.
Adriana: Thank you for having us.
Colleen: Absolutely.
Nikki: So if you have any questions or comments for us, you can email us at Formeradventist@gmail.com, and there is still time to sign up for our conference. We’d love to have you. If you’re local, just come. If you want to sign up on the website, go to proclamationmagazine.com, and if you are still unsure, even up to the last day, just come in person. You can register there at the door. Also, at that website you are welcome to sign up for our weekly emails or our print magazine, and there’s also a donation button there if you’d like to come alongside us and support the ministry. And don’t forget, you can follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and we’d love for you to leave a review.
Colleen: So thank you again, Audrey and Adriana. We’ve enjoyed this very much.
Nikki: Yeah, thank you. †
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