Colleen and Nikki talk with Justin Peters, an expert in the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). This interview took place at the Truth Matters Conference at Grace Community Church in October, 2019. Podcast was published November 20, 2019. Transcription by Gwen Billington.
Nikki: Hi. Welcome to Former Adventist. I’m Nikki Stevenson.
Colleen: And I’m Colleen Tinker.
Nikki: We are so excited about the podcast today. A couple weeks ago we had the opportunity to go to the Truth Matters Conference at John MacArthur’s church, and we got to interview Justin Peters, and today we share that interview with you.
Colleen: It was an awesome experience. But before we do that, Nikki has some details for you.
Nikki: Yes. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at formeradventist@gmail.com. We love hearing from you, and we are reading them. This podcast is made possible by your generous donations. We’re so grateful for that. If you would like to give, you can go to proclamationmagazine.com, and there’s a link for giving there. Also, if you enjoy this podcast, we’d love it if you’d leave a review and share it with your friends. This helps us expand our reach with the good news of the gospel and the dangers of false religion. Colleen, can you tell us a little bit about how you came to know Justin Peters.
Colleen: Well, I, unfortunately, can’t say I know him personally. I think he would be awesome to know personally.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: But I first encountered Justin six years ago when we went to the Strange Fire Conference at John MacArthur’s church, Grace Community Church in Los Angeles. He was a guest speaker there, as he was at the Truth Matters Conference this year, and I heard him explain how we can know that we can’t depend upon modern prophets. He explained at that conference how the church was founded and that prophets who hear from the Lord were what helped to build the church and do not continue today. He was such a clear explainer that it helped me understand and cleared up a lot of confusion in my head, and I was so excited when we were able to hear him again this year.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: What about you?
Nikki: Well, for me, my first time encountering him was also at Strange Fire, but after we interviewed Justin Peters this last time, my husband went and sat with him, and he shared with him that when we first left Adventism – this was back in 2010 – I remember we got kind of caught up in it was actually a TV evangelist, and he was very engaging, he had, I don’t know, an inspiring message, and he was charismatic, and he talked about, you know, how we should be seeing the sign gifts, and Carel and I used to watch him faithfully every week for a while right at first.
Colleen: Wow.
Nikki: Because, you know, you don’t really know which way – who’s got the truth, which way do you go right away.
Colleen: Exactly.
Nikki: And it was around that time Carel went online, and he bumped into Justin Peters somehow and began listening to him, and he knew that we needed to stop listening to this other guy, and Justin helped really root him in sola scriptura, and so he had the chance to sit with him and thank him for that. So even though I didn’t actually know who Justin Peters was back in 2010, because that was Carel who found him, he impacted my life right away.
Colleen: That’s such a wonderful – that’s actually a very wonderful story.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: It enhances why it is so exciting for us to be able to have interviewed him.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: We were at Grace Community Church, sitting at a little table on the Grace Walk, so you will hear lots of background noise, with people who are at the conference walking around between sessions, and you’ll get to listen in as we talked with Justin for a few minutes, and I hope you enjoy what you hear.
Colleen: Justin, thank you for joining us.
Justin: My pleasure, my pleasure. Good to be with y’all.
Colleen: Can you tell us about your ministry. What is your ministry?
Justin: Sure. My ministry is named Justin Peters Ministries, and I hope that’s more just of a lack of creativity rather than narcissism, I really didn’t mean it that way, but I travel. I’m an evangelist, I’m an itinerate preacher and teacher. I travel across the United States and internationally as well, preaching and teaching God’s Word. What I’m most known for is my apologetic work that is a Biblical critique of the Word of Faith Movement, the New Apostolic Reformation, the Health and Wealth Prosperity Gospel, you know, the TV preachers that say it’s always God’s will to be wealthy, always God’s will to be physically healed. I teach against that stuff, that that is not what the gospel is about. That’s kind of what I’m known for. It’s not my only interest. My first commitment is expository preaching, preaching God’s Word verse by verse, but that is kind of what I’m known for.
Colleen: Thank you. Do you know much about Seventh-day Adventism? What do you know?
Justin: Well, I don’t know a great deal. I do know kind of the basics of the history. I know it was begun by Ellen G. White, a woman who claimed that God spoke to her, and that was the birth of Seventh-day Adventism. Now, from what I have understood, of course, they hold to Saturday being the Sabbath, and if you don’t honor that as the Sabbath day, then you’re in serious error. From what I have understood, some would say that if you do not observe Saturday as the Sabbath, you have no possibility of being saved. Others would say, “No, that’s not true. We just believe that it’s serious error.” But I do know that any movement that is begun by an individual saying, “God spoke to me. Let me tell you what He has to say,” nothing good comes out of that. Once the Canon of Scripture is closed, the office of prophecy is closed, and so it’s really a nonstarter right – and when you look at how the movement began, it’s an immediate nonstarter.
Nikki: What would you say to somebody who believes that they can read the writings of a professing prophet, but you know, not really take them seriously and just kind of meld her into a devotional style writer.
Justin: That’s a nonstarter too. So for Seventh-day Adventism, for example, Ellen G. White, the first problem is that she is a she, and we know that the Bible has set it up that men are to be the spiritual leaders in both the church and the home, and so right off the bat you know there’s a problem there, but more specifically to your question, with modern-day prophets, there are no modern-day prophets today in the sense of foretelling the future. And this gets into what’s called the Cascade Argument for cessationism, the belief that all of the apostolic gifts, the sign gifts, have ceased. If there are no more apostles today – and there aren’t, because to be an apostle, a true apostle of Christ, you had to be a first-person eyewitness of Jesus, number one; number two, you had to be directly appointed by Christ to be an apostle; and number three, you had to have the ability to perform the signs and wonders of an apostle, heal the sick and raise the dead, those type of things. And there are no more apostles today. That office is clearly closed. There were 12 apostles, and nobody today is an apostle of Christ. The Cascade Argument is that if there are no more apostles today, then there cannot be any more prophets today because the prophets, that office, was held to the same authoritative level and the same standard of perfection when speaking for God when bringing new divine revelation, and the foundation of the church, as Paul says in Ephesians, the church was built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, so if there are no more apostles today, then there cannot be any more prophets today, because those two offices are so closely related and carry the same weight. Yeah, once the Canon of Scripture was closed, the apostles all passed away and went to heaven; there cannot be anymore prophets today. So I don’t care if you’re Ellen G. White, I don’t care if you’re Muhammed or Joseph Smith or whoever you are claiming to hear from God, you’re not. You may be hearing from a demon or something, but you’re not hearing from God.
Colleen: Well, Adventism has shaped a worldview, and no matter whether they say they need to keep the Sabbath to be saved or not, or whether they say they are evangelical or historic Adventists, they still have the same worldview, which came from Ellen White – not all Adventists understand that – but one of the outcomes of that is that they have a fallible Jesus who didn’t finish the atonement, and they pretty much all believe that. Either that, or they have morphed it into a universalism where whatever it was He did, it took care of everything for all time for all people. So the gospel is blurred. What would you say to somebody who’s being deceived by the public works of Adventism, the Health Message, the free health clinics, the really good-sounding Christian-ish message, and there becoming actually Christians are often being pulled in and beguiled. What would you say? How would they know they were in danger, without understanding all that background? What would you say to them? Because there are a lot of those kinds of people.
Justin: I would say you cannot base the authenticity, the soundness of a movement or a denomination upon public works, because there’s nothing inherently or uniquely Christian about that. There are atheists out there who do some good philanthropic things. Roman Catholics do these things, you know, any number of false religions can do good philanthropic things, so you can’t base whether or not a church is sound on those type issues. That’s really a works salvation, and there’s nothing unique about doing these things that pagans don’t do as well. You have to look at what they teach, look at what they teach. Look at how they view Scripture. Do they believe it is inerrant, do they believe it’s infallible, do they believe it’s authoritative, and do they believe it’s sufficient. We’re are the Truth Matters Conference right now talking about the sufficiency of Scripture. Is Scripture sufficient? Do they believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone? And if the answer to any of those questions is “No,” or “Well, I’m not really sure,” then you’re in trouble, so you need to move away from that. Look at their doctrine, not at these external things.
Colleen: I have another question. A lot of times when people leave Adventism – and there are more and more people who do – they go one of two directions. Most of them go into unbelief, agnosticism or outright atheism, and say, “If that didn’t work for me – I know it was right and it didn’t work for me, I can’t go to a Sunday church.” So they go into unbelief. Some, however, are attracted to the gospel, but many end up veering ultimately into charismatic-type churches with healing ministries. Now, I’m going to ask this to you specifically because I know you’ve had to grapple with this in your own life. I’d like you to talk just a little about that. What would you say to people who really have suffered real trauma? Adventism actually is a trauma, a lot of trauma in families, a lot of abuse, and then a lot of loss when they leave. How would you talk to people like that about how to find solutions for their trauma without going into false prophets or false healers?
Justin: Yeah, I know for me, when I was a teenager, I got wrapped up in the Word of Faith Movement. I went to see faith healers in hopes of being healed, and it did shake me for a while – oh, yes, because I have cerebral palsy. I guess you probably can’t tell that through the radio. I was born with a handicap; I was born with cerebral palsy. I walk on crutches, and so yes, as a teenager I very much wanted to be healed. There was a man who came up to me, and he told me that God spoke to him – like Ellen G. White – God spoke to him and told him that I was going to be healed as long as I have enough faith, and he was spending a lot of time with me, taking Scripture out of context, but at age 16, I didn’t know that’s what he was doing. You know, Isaiah 53:4 and 5, “By His stripes we are healed,” and so I was completely convinced that I was going to be healed, and I wanted that at that age, and so I really got wrapped up in this movement, and once everything kind of fell apart, I obviously was not healed, and it made me doubt, “I guess I didn’t have enough faith,” you know, “Is this stuff even true?” And that’s the danger of false teaching is because false teaching promises people things that the Bible just does not promise. The Bible does not promise us a completely healed body and material wealth. In fact, it promises the opposite of that, it promises persecution. But when these false movements, doctrines, promise people things that do not come to pass, they become disenchanted, and they will either go into apostasy or agnosticism or, you know, into one cult to another or something like that. I would encourage people if you’re listening to this and you have been burned, you’ve been disenchanted, you’ve gone through this kind of a spiritual trauma, if you will, to use that term, go back to the Scriptures, go back to the Scriptures alone. Read God’s Word. Read the Word of God for what it says, what it does promise and what it does not promise. The gospel does not promise us an easy life. It does promise us a clear conscience once we are forgiven of our sins. It does promise us new affections, new desires. We’ll begin to love the things that Christ loves, hate the things that Christ hates. It does promise us the fellowship of believers, our brothers and sisters in Christ around the world, there is an intimate fellowship. These things it does promise. So just get a Bible and spend time studying it and ask the Lord to illumine the meaning of God’s Word to you, and join a good, doctrinally sound church. Just because you’ve been burned in one false system does not mean the truth is not out there. It is. The truth is out there. There are good churches out there.
Nikki: Justin, a lot of our listeners are Christians who have left Adventism but still have family in and friends who are in, and they’re trying to speak the truth to them. Some of them are writing and trying to go public to just expose the gospel. We end up hearing from Adventists who are listening to us that we really are just bitter, we need to stop bashing them. What would you say to people who are trying to proclaim the truth to those who can’t understand that?
Justin: That’s a really great question, and let me say that there is something about the family dynamic that makes it very hard for members of our own family to receive what we try to tell them. Jesus says, “A father is not without honor except in his own hometown,” and there’s something about that family dynamic that makes it very difficult, but if we love our family members enough, we should love them enough to tell them the truth. That is the most loving things that we can do. It is not up to us how that truth is received. It is up to us to communicate it. So speak the truth to them, pray that God would soften their hearts, that they would be open to being corrected. Now, none of us, by our own nature, likes correction, so that really is a work of the Holy Spirit, that He will have to take the blinders off of their eyes and make them receptive to the truth, but pray for that, pray towards that end. Speak the truth to them, and be prepared for that to cost you. Be prepared for that. That very well may happen. Jesus said, “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword, and I will set father against son, mother against daughter, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law,” so don’t be surprised if it does cause division. The Bible tells us that. It very well likely may happen, but at least you will have the blessing of having a clear conscience, knowing that you have spoken the truth in love, as Paul says in Ephesians 4:15, “Speak the truth in love,” and as long as you do that, you will have the blessing of having a clear conscience. You speak God’s truth in love, and you trust Him for the results.
Colleen: Thank you so much for joining us and for talking with us, and it’s so nice to meet another brother in Christ that we’ve never spoken to before, and there’s that bond of the Spirit. Thank you.
Justin: Y’all are so very welcome. I’ve really enjoyed this, and thank you. And I want to thank you for what you’re doing, and I know this is not an easy work, but I’m very encouraged to see what y’all are doing, so please do keep it up, and may God bless your efforts here.
Nikki: Do you have a website that you could share with us before we go.
Justin: I do. Unsurprisingly, my website is justinpeters.org.
Nikki: Wasn’t that amazing?
Colleen: It was so fun.
Nikki: I still can’t believe we had that incredible opportunity.
Colleen: I know, and it was random. We didn’t pre-plan it. We just went up and asked him before the previous session if he would mind interviewing with us and explained our ministry, and he said he’d be happy to.
Nikki: That was so great. He was so accessible. I noticed that through the whole conference. He was very accessible to the people.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: He really cares.
Colleen: And the other thing I noticed about him while we were interviewing him was what kind eyes he had.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: He’s just a really sweet, genuine Christian person, and it was a privilege.
Nikki: He loves the truth. That comes through so clear.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Very inspiring.
Nikki: So what stood out to you in that talk?
Colleen: Well, there were a lot of things, and as I listen, I realize there are some pretty profound things he said. One was, he said, “I don’t care if you’re Ellen G. White or Muhammed or Joseph Smith, if you’re hearing from God, you’re not, and you might be hearing from a demon.”
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: And you know, it was a hard thing for me, as we were leaving Adventism and starting to look closely at what we believed, to realize that what Ellen White said could not have come from God.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Not only that, it wasn’t just random nonsense. It was so carefully crafted –
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: – and so carefully took down the reputation and identity of Jesus that it has to be antichrist.
Nikki: Um-hmm. That’s a hard thing to wrap your mind around as you’re leaving.
Colleen: It is.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: It is. I mean, we were not in a benign little misinformation, somebody just accidentally got a fact wrong. We were in a group that was built on a false Jesus, a false understanding of who He is, and a false definition of the atonement, and that’s antichrist.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: What about you? What stood out to you?
Nikki: There was so much. I really appreciated how much he knew already about Adventism.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: It showed me that he genuinely cares about these false religions and people coming to know the truth. He wasn’t, you know, confused about whether or not they were Christian. He’s very clear on what’s true and what isn’t, and that was actually refreshing to hear from him.
Colleen: Totally.
Nikki: And I thought it was interesting too that he said, “If someone says, ‘God told me,’ nothing good can come from that.” [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.] You know, I remember hearing somebody – I think I was reading it, actually – you know what, I’m not going to say where I heard it, because I don’t remember for sure, but I loved the phrase I picked up somewhere: If somebody tells me they’ve heard from God, I don’t have to let that bind my conscience –
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: – because it’s not in God’s Word.
Nikki: Right.
Colleen: So it was encouraging to hear him explain that too.
Nikki: Right. And I really also appreciated the fact that he says that his explanation of the Cascade Argument for cessationism –
Colleen: Oh, right.
Nikki: – and the fact that the apostles and the prophets were the foundation of the church.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And my husband, who’s a structural engineer, often likes to say, “No building has two foundations; there is one foundation,” and so this has ended. If you don’t have modern-day apostles, you don’t have modern-day prophets.
Colleen: That’s a great point, because Ephesians 2 is really clear that the apostles and the prophets were the foundation of the church, not –
Nikki: Um-hmm. And we are being built up on that foundation.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And Christ is, of course, the cornerstone. And I appreciated that he outlined what an apostle was, who was an eyewitness of Christ, someone who was appointed by Christ Himself –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – who had the sign gifts, and that’s done.
Colleen: Absolutely. Another thing I really appreciated was when he talked about how to handle the angry and hurt, if I may use that word, Adventist family and friends we leave. Now, they often accuse us of being bitter and hurt, but it seems as though we feel bitterness from them when we try to explain why we left, but Justin said we are obligated to speak the truth of the gospel to them, even if they don’t want to hear it.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: And he said, “If you do, you will have a clear conscience,” because you actually do know the truth when you know Jesus, and it’s our responsibility to speak that truth to them. That is what gives us a clear conscience. And it’s not our job to make them believe. That is the Holy Spirit’s job, and if they’re resistant, it’s not personal. It’s a spiritual thing. God is responsible for opening their minds. Our job is just to speak the truth and have a clear conscience for having done so.
Nikki: It’s living a life of obedience.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And I appreciated him saying that we’re not responsible for how it’s received. In Adventism, we very much were responsible for people to come to “the truth.”
Colleen: Good point.
Nikki: That was our responsibility. We were given a lot of tools and proof texts to make sure it happened. I’ve seen parents agonize over not yet being able to control their kids, um –
Colleen: Oh, yes. In fact, Ellen White said that the parents would be punished when Jesus comes back if their children weren’t in the truth –
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: – which is the Adventist truth.
Nikki: And I have Christian friends who’ve left Adventism who I’ve watched agonize over the fact that their family, their loved ones, they just – no matter how often they’re told the gospel, they have all the “yeah, but…”
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: “Yeah, but…” And I know one in particular. She’s struggled with feeling responsible for that.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: So that’s a hard one for us. And I really appreciated that he told us that we ought to pray that God would open them to correction. I’ve never thought of it that way, but, yeah, that He would open their hearts to being corrected, because that’s hard.
Colleen: It is.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: It’s a humbling, actually. Another thing happened right at the end. I was a little overcome by the fact that he said, having never met us before or even heard of our ministry, he said, “I’m encouraged by what you’re doing. I appreciate what you are doing. I ask that you keep doing what you’re doing.” He was so encouraging, and you know, I have to admit, I have been, over the last 20 years, often saddened and disappointed by Christians who don’t seem to understand why I put so much energy into what I do. Why do I make such a big deal about Adventism?
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: A lot of Christians don’t understand that it is a false gospel that must be exposed and combated with the truth.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: And he understood that, even though he had never met us.
Nikki: He did. He related to our mission.
Colleen: He did.
Nikki: His story was incredible. And you can hear – if you go on his website, on justinpeters.org, you can find his testimony there, and it’s just – it’s an incredible story. It’s sad. I mean, he was a 16-year-old boy following a false teacher, and he became hopeless. And I thought it was interesting that whatever false religion it is, those who end up discouraged by it often go into agnosticism or, you know, atheism.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: I appreciated his call for the people who’ve left Adventism, who are struggling with the pain of that –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – to go to Scripture, not to healers and promises, go to Scripture and specifically look for what it does and does not promise.
Colleen: Isn’t that interesting. Yes. Does and does not promise.
Nikki: Yeah, yeah. That was great. And another thing too, I really liked that he said that you cannot base the soundness of a religion on its public works, that even atheists do good things.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: But looking at that, that’s works salvation.
Colleen: Absolutely, and it’s interesting that Adventism takes the Health Message, which they call the “right arm of the gospel,” and they lead in communities. Before doing evangelistic meetings, they will lead with free health clinics and cooking schools and do-goodisms.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: And it’s deceptive. People need to figure out what’s behind that and what’s being taught. It’s interesting that people who preach the gospel generally come right out and preach the gospel and don’t lead with something that’s a camouflage.
Nikki: Um-hmm. Yeah, that’s a good point. And it’s hard not to feel beholden to someone who does something, you know, for you like –
Colleen: Oh, yes.
Nikki: Yeah. They do a lot of good stuff.
Colleen: They do. And there’s God’s common grace in that. He does provide for the world through the things that they do.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: But it’s not the gospel, and it’s not salvific.
Nikki: Um-hmm. And it’s not a sign of the validity of their message.
Colleen: Exactly.
Nikki: Which, I can understand why it would be confusing to some who don’t understand what Adventism is, because, I mean, for example, I took my daughter to her pediatric appointment – it was at a Loma Linda clinic – and as I sat in the doctor’s office waiting for her to come in and examine Abbie, they had a computer with slideshows on it, or, like, slides.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And there were invitations to Bible studies, with pictures of the Bible.
Colleen: Oh, my.
Nikki: If I was a Christian who knew nothing about Adventism, I might be interested in going. Abbie has a wonderful pediatrician, she is an Adventist woman, she saved Joshua’s life when he was 5 weeks old –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – and I have really appreciated her. It would be very easy if I didn’t know –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: – you know, to get kind of sucked into that. So I love that he said, “Don’t look at what they do, at their good works.” He said, “Look specifically at what they teach,” and he said, “What do they say about Scripture and what do they say about salvation.”
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And we know in Adventism, Scripture is errant –
Colleen: Absolutely.
Nikki: – and Ellen White really is the one who tells us what it means.
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: And we know the atonement isn’t complete.
Colleen: Right. No, the Investigative Judgment is supposedly occurring in heaven as we speak, and who knows when our name will come up.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Or, if you’re a very progressive Adventist, the Investigative Judgment is going on in heaven so that we will understand all of God’s reasonings, and He will be vindicated. Either way, it’s not a Biblical picture of God. Either way, God does not owe us His explanations, and whatever Adventism says about that, the atonement was completed on the cross.
Nikki: Yes.
Colleen: The finished atonement is what made the difference for me. When I understood that Jesus completed everything necessary for my salvation on the cross, that He fulfilled every requirement God had laid out for the payment of sin, for the consequences of sin, and for delivering us from the curse of sin, for delivering us from the sentence of the Law that condemned us to death for sin, when I learned that all of that was done by Jesus, completed inJesus as He hung on the cross, taking my sin to the cross, that was when I realized Adventism really was false.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: The gospel is clear. Jesus died for our sins according to Scripture, it wasn’t a brand new thing that He just came and did, but the Bible had foretold, the prophets had foretold Him. He was buried, He was raised on the third day according to Scripture, and because of Him, I have life. As I accept the fact that He paid for my sin and repent at the foot of the cross and accept His free gift of salvation and forgiveness and righteousness, I am transferred from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of the beloved Son, and I pass from death to life at that moment. And like Jesus said to Martha at the tomb of Lazarus before He called him forth, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even if he dies, and he who believes in me will never die.” That is the gospel, and that is the message of truth that I did not understand in Adventism. And I just hope that everyone listening understands what Jesus did. And if you haven’t trusted Him, my prayer is that you will. He has finished the atonement. Wasn’t that a fun interview?
Nikki: It really was. It really was, and we have more to share.
Colleen: Yes, we do, and it’s so exciting to be able to let the people who hear our podcast hear from Justin Peters up close and personal. So we just ask that you join us again next week, and don’t forget to email us at formeradventist@gmail.com if you have questions or comments or things you’d like for us to address. Thanks for joining us. †
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