Nikki and Colleen chat with Carolyn Ratzlaff as she shares her prior commitment to Adventism and her fear that her husband’s questions could cost her the job she loved. She recounts how she was fired and how the Lord reassured her the first time she worked on Saturday. Podcast was published October 30, 2019. Transcription by Gwen Billington.
Nikki: Hello, and welcome to the Former Adventist podcast, where we discuss life after Adventism. I’m Nikki Stevenson.
Colleen: And I’m Colleen Tinker.
Nikki: And today we have a very special guest. But before we get to that, I want to just remind you that if you have any questions or comments or topic ideas for the podcast, you can email us at formeradventist@gmail.com. We’ve loved hearing from some of you, and we hope you’ll continue to write. We do have a magazine that we print twice a year. If you’d like to request a free subscription for yourself or for a friend, you can also email us at formeradventist@gmail.com for that. This podcast is made possible by your generous donations, and we’re so grateful. If you’d like to make a donation, you can find the link for that at the proclamationmagazine.com website. Also, be sure and subscribe to our podcast. Today, joining us we have Carolyn Ratzlaff, the wife of LAM founder Dale Ratzlaff and author of “My Cup Overflows.” Welcome, Carolyn.
Carolyn: Thank you. It’s good to be here.
Colleen: I’m personally really excited to do this, Carolyn. I’ve known you as long as I’ve known Richard, just about, and as we’ve said in previous podcasts, my first introduction to you and Dale was the black sheep of the family. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Carolyn: [Laughter.] Okay.
Colleen: Because you had left Adventism, and I obviously didn’t know much about your story until a bit later, but we’re here to ask you some questions about what that process was like for you, not just theologically, but as a woman and a wife, because there are things we worry about that, while we share the vision with our husbands, sometimes those emotional, personal details are not things we share completely with them, and there are a lot of women who are in the situation you were in, and I’d like to just encourage them with your story too. You have written a book, “My Cup Overflows,” which tells the story of your life, and that’s a wonderful resource which, if anybody wants to get it, you may do so by writing formeradventist@gmail.com, and we can direct you to the source of that book. But, what I’d like to ask you first of all is: When did you first start understanding that something was wrong with Adventism and your life was going to change?
Carolyn: Perhaps when we were still very much Adventist –
Colleen: Yes, I’m sure.
Carolyn: – and Dale was preaching the gospel, and we would have people who had left Adventism come to visit us, and they would bring up topics that we – I knew were not right.
Nikki: Hmm.
Colleen: Oh, interesting. Regarding what?
Carolyn: Well, regarding Ellen White.
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Carolyn: Regarding death.
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: Regarding the Sabbath.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: Regarding just life in general as Adventism – vegetarianism.
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: Many, many things. People would, you know, approach us and mention these things, and I knew in my heart – I guess you would call that denial at that point –
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.] Uh-huh.
Carolyn: – that they were wrong and I was right.
Colleen: And you were a pastor’s wife at that time.
Carolyn: Absolutely, yes.
Colleen: Okay. My goodness. That would put you in a dilemma. How did you answer them?
Carolyn: I don’t think I really did.
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: I just pondered those in my heart, you know, wondering, “Are they right? Am I wrong?”
Colleen: Interesting.
Carolyn: It did begin to raise some questions in my mind, but when Dale started studying and learning that, you know, Ellen White was a fraud –
Colleen: Yes.
Carolyn: – I knew for sure that he was wrong and I was right, and I – [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Now, you were employed by the conference at that time, weren’t you?
Carolyn: I was. I was what they called a Bible worker.
Colleen: In the Central California Conference?
Carolyn: Yes, yes.
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Carolyn: And I told Dale, I said, “You just be careful. Don’t do anything that would cause me to lose my job. [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Carolyn: I knew that we needed somebody to have an income. [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.] So Carolyn, what is a Bible worker?
Carolyn: That’s a good question. A Bible worker is someone who is employed by a conference to give “Bible studies” to lead people into Adventism.
Nikki: And you were paid to do this.
Carolyn: I was paid to do that. I was working with pastors of five different churches, four or five, I can’t remember, and I would go around to those churches, and they would give me names to go and visit, and I would have Bible studies with people. I had group Bible studies. It was an interesting job.
Colleen: Oh, I bet you met interesting people.
Carolyn: I did until I learned of all the problems with Adventism [laughter].
Nikki: So were they scripted, were they written for you and you had to just –
Carolyn: Some – yes. Some of them were scripted –
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: –but Dale was also writing Bible studies.
Nikki: Okay.
Carolyn: We were studying books of the Bible, and I was using those as well, but I had to also go through the 27 doctrinal points with these people.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Wow. Now, before you were a pastor’s wife in the Central Conference, Dale taught at Monterey Bay Academy, didn’t he?
Carolyn: Yes.
Colleen: Taught Bible. And did you work for the academy too?
Carolyn: I did. I was secretary to the principal.
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: Administrative assistant.
Colleen: Okay. So there was something that you told me years ago that I’d like to just have you comment on, because I think it explains a lot about how seriously you took Adventism. You were talking to me about your dedication to Health Reform –
Carolyn: Oh, yes [laughter].
Colleen: – while you were at Monterey Bay Academy. Can you talk about that? What was going on?
Carolyn: Well, we had gotten some information from a person, Stewart Kime, and he was very much into Ellen White, and he was promoting the idea that not only strong vegetarianism, but also no fat, no fat of any kind.
Colleen: Oh.
Nikki: Oh.
Carolyn: So we thought, you know – and we would read the quotes that he was telling us about in – what it was, “Foods and –
Colleen: Oh, “Counsels on Diet and Food.”
Carolyn: Yes, “Counsels on Diet and Foods.”
Colleen: Oh, my.
Carolyn: And the quotes were there. We read them.
Colleen: Oh, my.
Carolyn: How we should not have fat of any kind.
Colleen: Umm.
Carolyn: So we started giving up fat.
Colleen: How did you do that?
Carolyn: It was absolutely horrible. The boys wouldn’t eat at home anymore. [Laughter.]
Colleen: They were teenagers?
Carolyn: They were teenagers. It wasn’t really quite that bad, but I started having skin issues.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: I’m sure. What happened?
Carolyn: My skin got really flaky, and it was just really a poor, poor diet, and of course, nowadays, with good information that’s out there, it was an absolutely horrible diet.
Colleen: Well, that brings up another question for me. Your boys, how old were they during this time you were at Monterey Bay Academy?
Carolyn: Our youngest son was still in elementary school –
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: – when we went there, and our older boy also. They were both in elementary school when we went to Monterey Bay Academy.
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: But then they went into high school.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: And during the time that we were being so strict with our diet, Mike, our youngest son, was a freshman –
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: – and Bruce was a junior.
Colleen: Oh, my. So –
Carolyn: So it was pretty traumatic for them. [Laughter.]
Colleen: I would imagine. Did they push back? Did they –
Carolyn: [Laughter.] They did to some extent, but they were also pretty understanding, but they would go to their friend’s house and eat. [Laughter.]
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: And how significant that within Adventism we have the totally observant ones who are trying to follow every detail of Ellen White, like you and Dale –
Carolyn: We did.
Colleen: – and the Adventists who also worked for the conference, worked for the school, who were eating fat.
Carolyn: And meat.
Colleen: And meat. Well, there you go.
Carolyn: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Did that disturb you?
Carolyn: Yes, it did. In fact, one of my jobs was to do a daily newsletter for the faculty and include news items that pertained to their teaching, but also I had a little devotional at the top, and I felt it my duty to educate [laughter] –
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Carolyn: – the entire faculty [laughter] on what Ellen White says about diet.
Colleen: Oh.
Nikki: Oh.
Carolyn: It was horrible, absolutely horrible.
Colleen: Did the faculty react to you.
Carolyn: No. Um, perhaps quietly, but they never said anything to me.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: I mean, several of them were trying to follow Ellen White as well, but not all of them.
Nikki: Um-hmm. It’s hard to argue with the prophetess.
Carolyn: Yes.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Exactly.
Carolyn: You know. I mean, when I used the quotes [laughter] –
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Oh, yeah. So, how long were you on this? When did you start eating fat again, and did it cause you guilt?
Carolyn: No. It did not cause guilt because by the time we had left Adventism, we’d also left that diet –
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: – and we were eating normally again, I think [laughter].
Carolyn: Okay.
Nikki: So how old were the boys when you guys left?
Carolyn: Bruce was probably 20, so Mike would have been 18.
Colleen: Eighteen. How did they react?
Carolyn: Bruce was with us at home. Mike had gone away to school, and so Bruce was there with all of the trauma that we went through –
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Oh.
Carolyn: – all of the questioning and the way the church was beginning to treat us –
Nikki: Uh-huh.
Carolyn: – so he understood. Mike was away at college, and he would tell us when we would call him, and he said, “Are you sure you’re doing the right thing? Are you sure, Mom and Dad? Do you really know what you’re doing?” So it concerned both of them.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: They were family, we were family, and you know –
Nikki: Right. Yeah.
Carolyn: – kids and parents support each other –
Nikki: Yeah.
Carolyn: – at least in our family we did.
Colleen: Right. So did the boys feel you were wrong?
Carolyn: Mike was wondering.
Colleen: Right.
Carolyn: Bruce did not.
Colleen: Okay, okay.
Carolyn: Bruce was supportive of us.
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: And he knew that Adventism was wrong. We had reached that point.
Colleen: Okay. So during the time that Dale was being questioned by the conference and he was doing his – he had started preaching, as I recall, the gospel in church –
Carolyn: Right.
Colleen: – and he was talking to the conference officials, trying to get them to explain 1844 and they couldn’t, how were you reacting? You already said that you said, “Don’t get me fired, someone has to have an income.” When he was fired, what did that do to you? And were you fired too?
Carolyn: We were both invited down for all of the questioning, and we both met with the conference committee for questioning. But when the final call came to Dale to go down, I was not asked to go.
Colleen: Oh.
Nikki: Hmm.
Carolyn: And he was fired. I never was called in. I was never told I was fired. It was just a nonissue.
Nikki: Wow.
Carolyn: I did get a severance pay.
Colleen: So they terminated you without telling you.
Carolyn: Yes.
Colleen: [Gasps.]
Nikki: Wow.
Colleen: Oh, interesting.
Carolyn: Yes [laughter]. Yes.
Colleen: Oh, my. So – oh, my.
Carolyn: [Laughter.]
Nikki: How did you react to that? Were you grateful that you didn’t have to go through that meeting or –
Carolyn: No. I felt a little offended –
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: I would’ve.
Carolyn: – because I had been there –
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: – and if he didn’t like what I was doing, if the committee had something to say, I felt they should say it to me.
Nikki: Yeah.
Carolyn: You know, not just hearsay.
Nikki: Right.
Carolyn: I mean, they didn’t even say anything to Dale about me.
Nikki: Oh!
Colleen: Oh!
Carolyn: It just – it just went away. [Laughter.]
Colleen: Oh, my.
Carolyn: Yes.
Colleen: Carolyn! I feel offended. [Laughter.]
Nikki: Awful.
Colleen: So were you in the middle of seeing people at that time, in your Bible work?
Carolyn: It had pretty much come to an end.
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: Because I had started sharing the gospel.
Nikki: Good for you. [Laughter.]
Colleen: Oh, well! That will terminate things, won’t it? [Laughter.]
Carolyn: And people were accepting Christ but not joining the Adventist church.
Nikki: Okay.
Carolyn: And so when I would give my monthly report to the conference, it didn’t look very good anymore, and I was not –
Colleen: Interesting.
Carolyn: Some of the Bible studies where they were Adventist, a group Bible study where it was Adventist ladies and many of the neighborhood ladies who were not Adventist, the Adventist ladies had asked me to quit coming.
Colleen: Interesting.
Nikki: Oh.
Carolyn: Because I had one time in prayer prayed for our leaders [laughter], and they said that I couldn’t do that.
Colleen: [Gasps.]
Carolyn: Then I said, “Well, what’s wrong with praying for our leaders?” And they said, “Well, they’re right, and whatever they do is right, and we just have to follow them –
Colleen: [Gasps.]
Carolyn: – and if they are wrong, they’ll let us know –
Nikki: [Gasps.]
Colleen: [Gasps.]
Carolyn: – and in the meantime, we just do what the leaders, our church leaders, say. So when they told me that, I thought, you know, “There’s no reason for me to be here anymore.”
Nikki: Right.
Colleen: Oh absolutely.
Carolyn: So pretty much I had quit giving any Bible studies. I still had a few where they were not associated with Adventists. They accepted the gospel and joined our new church. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.] Nikki, doesn’t this just confirm what we were talking about the other day, about the BITE model –
Nikki: Yes.
Colleen: – Information Control, Thought Control?
Nikki: Yes.
Colleen: I mean, that’s blatant.
Carolyn: They were well-educated ladies, wives of doctors and other professionals.
Colleen: Of course. Oh, yes.
Carolyn: So it really bothered me that they had such a closed mind and were so afraid to entertain that there might be some problems, you know? Just study, study, see what’s right.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: And I think that’s the word, they were afraid.
Carolyn: They were afraid. Um-hmm.
Nikki: I think people don’t question because of the fear, “Where will that lead us?”
Colleen: Right. Could you tell, just the story – I loved your story about the shelf paper on the floor and doing research?
Carolyn: [Laughter.]
Colleen: Could you tell that?
Carolyn: Okay. When Dale was getting mail – our mailbox was full every day of people who had begun sharing information. It was called the Adventist Underground?
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: And it was so much, and I was so busy I couldn’t really look at it. And I hadn’t really studied, and I had figured, you know, “Let the theologians figure this out.” [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.]
Carolyn: “I’ll not worry about it.” But then I began to realize I needed to do some study. I needed to find out for myself what is true here, and I said, “Okay, Dale. I’m not reading any of that material, I’m not reading Ellen White, I’m not going to do anything but go to the Bible and my concordance.”
Colleen: Good for you.
Carolyn: And I had a Strong’s, I think it was at that time.
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Carolyn: It was the best one, whatever. [Laughter.] And I got shelf paper – no computers yet – and I put the shelf paper on the floor, and I started in Genesis with the concordance looking at every text that had to deal with judgment.
Nikki: Wow.
Colleen: Interesting.
Carolyn: And it just – I got pretty much through the Old Testament and towards the New Testament, and I realized there is no Investigative Judgment as taught by Adventists.
Colleen: Right.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: It was a false doctrine. And that was the thing that cinched me with my decision regarding Adventism, because who is the one that supported the Investigative Judgment doctrine? Ellen White.
Collen: Absolutely.
Nikki: Yes.
Carolyn: And if she is supporting a false doctrine, what does that make her? [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.] A good question with a logical answer.
Carolyn: And I said, “Okay, this is it. This is a false doctrine –
Colleen: Wow.
Carolyn: – this is a false, cultic church,” and we had to leave. And that was – I actually came to that strong decision before Dale.
Nikki: Wow.
Colleen: Interesting.
Carolyn: Because, you know, that was his life, that was his education –
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Of course, his identity.
Carolyn: – everything about him was Adventism.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: That wasn’t the end of the trauma by any means –
Colleen: No.
Carolyn: – because I grew up in an Adventist home that loved Ellen White –
Colleen: Yes.
Carolyn: – and loved Jesus at the same time, supposedly.
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Carolyn: But my parents were Christians, and I loved everything about Adventism. I loved going to Sabbath school, as a teenager I loved all of the youth activities, I enjoyed Adventism, and some people have said, “Well, you never really understood Adventism anyway” –
Colleen: Oh, yes.
Nikki: Yep.
Carolyn: – and “you must have been hurt,” or “you just – you know, “you were just angry and bitter.”
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: None of that was true.
Colleen: No.
Carolyn: I never was angry. I never was bitter towards Adventism. Hurt and sad –
Colleen: Yes. After the fact maybe.
Nikki: Yeah.
Carolyn: – and sad to realize, you know, here this doctrine is the main doctrine of Adventism, the Investigative Judgment doctrine, and it’s false?
Colleen: Yeah.
Carolyn: And the leaders – we by that time had learned that the leaders knew it was false –
Colleen: Yes.
Carolyn: – and they were promoting it?
Colleen: You feel betrayed.
Carolyn: Very betrayed.
Colleen: Yeah.
Carolyn: We had been lied to, and if there was any bit of anger, it was at that time.
Colleen: Yes, I get it.
Carolyn: Anger and extreme betrayal and letdown.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Yes.
Carolyn: And so we spent many, many hours praying and searching and praying and reading and –
Colleen: Oh, Carolyn. It makes me want to cry, actually. You know –
Carolyn: [Laughter.] Well, we did a lot of crying at that time.
Colleen: You know, the first – I remember the time that Richard and I drove down to see you, when it became clear to us, right after Dale sent us the books. It was “Sabbath in Crisis” then and his first edition of “Cultic Doctrine,” and we felt like we had to talk to somebody, and we drove down for the weekend. We pulled the “Family Card.” Do you remember that? When you were in Sedona?
Carolyn: I do remember it! [Laughter.] It was delightful to have you.
Colleen: It was delightful. But you know, it was such an – it was an imprinting weekend I’ll never forget as long as I live, but there was nothing about either one of you that was even – that even hinted at snarkiness or anger. You were warm, you obviously loved the Lord, and I will never forget the sermon Dale preached that weekend that left Richard and me both in tears, that we had never heard a sermon like that, and then there was a baptism.
Carolyn: Right. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: There is nothing about you that was ever angry. You were warm, hospitable, and I just want to thank you now for all you’ve been to me.
Carolyn: Well, thank you, Colleen. You’ve been an inspiration to me as well.
Colleen: Going on, what was the hardest thing after leaving? After leaving, what did you lose the most or what has been the hardest thing to deal with?
Carolyn: Probably family.
Colleen: Okay.
Carolyn: I have one sister who is still very much Adventist, and for a while there was a rift. My parents were hurt, but my Dad – I explained everything to my Dad, and I said, “Dad, what would you have done?” He said, “I would have done exactly what you did.”
Nikki: Wow.
Colleen: What a wonderful thing to hear.
Carolyn: But they never left Adventism, but they loved the Lord, and it took a while for that little rift to be healed, but that probably was the hardest thing.
Colleen: Yes.
Carolyn: And then meeting former friends in the Adventist church who now were enemies.
Nikki: Oh, yeah.
Colleen: [Gasps.] That’s shocking, isn’t it?
Carolyn: It is. And it just shows where their heart is.
Colleen: I know.
Nikki: You said that you guys read a lot of Ellen White growing up in your home.
Carolyn: Yes.
Nikki: And you realized that the Investigative Judgment was a problem. Now, a lot of people in the younger generation are aware that the Investigative Judgment is an issue, and in fact, I have family who say, “We don’t believe in that,” but they still very much hold to the other teachings of Adventism that are unique to Adventists, and I’d love to hear you talk about can you be an Adventist and put Ellen White aside or put the Investigative Judgment aside and still believe things like the Health Message and the Sabbath and –
Colleen: Is that – can you be an Adventist and do that?
Carolyn: There are a lot of people who are in that position, I believe.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: They say they’re Adventist, but they don’t believe in much of the doctrine at all. For me, that would be dishonest, and I think it’s, you know, giving the wrong message to those around them. If they’re parents and they have children, what message is going to the children?
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: If they are being taught that this is the true church and Ellen White is a “true” prophet –
Nikki: Prophet. Um-hmm.
Carolyn: – but they don’t follow her, to me that would be extremely wrong.
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: But, you know, God’s the Judge, I’m not judging people, but I couldn’t do that.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Right. What has been the biggest surprise for you in leaving Adventism and living as a Christian afterwards? What has been the best – maybe we could say this, the best and most wonderful thing?
Carolyn: Knowing that Jesus covers it all. [Laughter.]
Colleen: That is huge, isn’t it? It’s a shock. It never goes away.
Carolyn: You know, it is. Right. And knowing that no matter how hard I try, I’ll never be able to try hard enough to make it.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: That He’s done it all. I think some of the other shocks are people are Christians out there! [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.] Yes.
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Carolyn: And I was still working. After we left Adventism, of course, I no longer was in Bible work and I started working at a computer firm down in San Jose. We lived in Watsonville, which was about 30 miles away, and I had not worked on Sabbath whenever they had extra work and needed help, and I had always told them no, but when we finally, you know, shed it all –
Colleen: Yes.
Carolyn: – and there was a call for work on a Sabbath, Saturday, I told them that I could come. And on my way to work that Saturday morning, I was filled with questions, with guilt –
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Colleen: Uh-huh.
Carolyn: – and I said, “Lord, what have I done, what am I doing,” and all of a sudden it seemed like my car was filled with the sweet presence of the Lord, and I started singing, and it just seemed like He was saying, “You’re representing Me today.”
Colleen: Oh, Carolyn!
Nikki: Oh.
Carolyn: And so I went to work and did the best I could do. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: It’s so amazing how He reassures us –
Carolyn: Right.
Colleen: – of His presence and His sufficiency at those moments when we have the greatest fear.
Carolyn: Yes. Right. And I think that was a fear too. You know, right after we left, we had all of these tapes running through our heads, “Have we done the right thing? Did we make a mistake?”
Nikki: Yeah. Um-hmm.
Carolyn: And we would always go back to Galatians –
Colleen: Oh.
Carolyn: – and even the Gospels, where Jesus says, “If you’re not willing to take up your cross and follow Me, you’re not worthy of Me.”
Nikki: Yeah.
Carolyn: And so we knew that we had made the right decision at that point.
Colleen: Yes.
Carolyn: It was not easy going through that. I’m a fifth generation Seventh-day Adventist.
Colleen: Wow. Um-hmm.
Carolyn: My great-great grandfather.
Colleen: Wow. So, Carolyn, if there are any Adventists or people who are contemplating leaving or questioning Adventism and just, you know, feeling stuck, what would you say to them if you could say anything?
Carolyn: Keep searching. Keep praying. Find some real Christians, and former Adventist Christians if you can, to help you. It’s not an easy road. When we left, we had no support.
Colleen: I thought of that.
Carolyn: Nowadays, there are a lot of websites, there is a lot of information out there.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: There are books available that people can get. Dale’s written a lot of books, and I’ve written one. [Laughter.]
Colleen: Yes, you have!
Nikki: Can you tell us a little about it?
Carolyn: It’s a story of my life from the perspective of being an Adventist child and an Adventist mother and an Adventist wife, and how much I loved Adventism. It’s there in the book, you know. I re-read it recently, and I was surprised really at the amount of honesty that we had, and still have. I mean, it was that honesty that caused us to say, “We’ve got to jettison this and follow the Lord.”
Nikki: Yeah.
Colleen: Yes. Uh-hmm. Nikki, would you like to tell once more where they can write if they want to find Carolyn’s book or any of Dale’s books?
Nikki: You can write to us at formeradventist@gmail.com, and we will get you set up with those books. We will get that to you.
Colleen: Absolutely.
Carolyn: My book, “My Cup Overflows,” is, it seemed to me when I read it just the other night, [laughter] that it is kind of trite, but it isn’t.
Nikki: No.
Carolyn: It really is the story of our journey –
Colleen: Yes.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: – and how God blessed us through that time and continues to bless us, and we just praise Him every day. And [laughter] so many times our prayers say, “Thank you for getting us out of Adventism.”
Colleen: Oh, yes. Ours do too.
Carolyn: Because that’s really true. Adventism is bondage, it’s really hard on people.
Colleen: It is!
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: And we’ve met some pretty damaged people because of Adventism, and it takes a long time for some of those people to be healed.
Colleen: Yes.
Carolyn: And some of them don’t get healed.
Colleen: Um-hmm.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: There’s nothing like knowing Jesus as your personal Savior.
Colleen: Exactly.
Nikki: Um-hmm.
Carolyn: And having Him as your guide and your companion and –
Colleen: Oh, that’s so true. And I would say too, it’s important to recognize that Adventism is a deception –
Carolyn: Yes.
Colleen: – but it’s not enough to just know that and go into an agnostic position, because there are still no answers, but there really is truth, there really is a way to heal from the dysfunction of Adventism, and that is knowing Jesus –
Carolyn: Absolutely.
Colleen: – and knowing the gospel.
Carolyn: Right.
Colleen: And the gospel, in a nutshell, is Jesus died for our sins according to Scripture, He was buried, He was raised on the third day according to Scripture, and He’s now sitting at the right hand of the Father, and when we trust Him, we are with Him there in heavenly places.
Carolyn: Amen, amen, amen. [Laughter.]
Nikki: [Laughter.]
Colleen: [Laughter.] Carolyn, thank you so much for talking with us.
Nikki: Yes, thank you.
Carolyn: Thank you for having me here today. And God bless you in your ministry. I think this is a wonderful thing that you’re doing.
Carolyn: Thank you.
Nikki: Thank you. †
- Inspecting Adventism’s Beliefs—God the Holy Spirit | 114 - October 17, 2022
- Inspecting Adventism’s Beliefs—Unity in the Body of Christ | 113 - October 17, 2022
- Inspecting Adventism’s Beliefs—The Remnant and Its Mission | 112 - September 7, 2022