Common Defenses of the Sabbath, 1 of 4

1. The new covenant is the law of God written in stone now written on our hearts – the ten commandments only were written in stone – including the fourth commandment – and remain in effect for all mankind.

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   1. Spot on brianv76! i would just like to say that it amazes me that most so called churches/religions are so entangled in trying to proves others wrong instead of proclaiming the gospel message of salvation to the world. This website and its managment should be preaching to help save souls rather than accusing (remember, satan is the author of accusers)other religions. Judgement will be made on all men by God himself, not man. I am a proud SDA member, I love my creator and savior and I hope and pray that you will find him to be the way, the truth and the life……

   2. Danny,
      Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t SDAism accuse all Protestants of being Daughters of the Harlot and Apostate?

      Doesn’t SDAism accuse other Christians of worshipping the sun god rather than Christ because they don’t believe in the 7th Day Sabbath?

      Or is it only wrong to be critical of SDAism?

      Regarding saving souls, one needs to be freed from the clutches of legalism (which is self-righteousness). Paul tells us that legalist are severed from Christ and fallen from grace (Gal 5:4). Revealing the false doctrines of the SDA church that bind so many in legalism IS an important step in proclaiming the Gospel.

2. Thanks for the reply Brian. You reply has an elegant sounding conclusion. Unfortunately, it is pure specualtion and devoid of Scripture. You might notice that each of my responses has been firmly grounded in the Word. What is your basis for concluding that the covenant contained only the Ten Commandments? What is your basis for concluding that the Law of God was limited to the Ten Commandments, didn’t God give all of the Laws to Moses that are recorded in his writings, or are you suggesting that these other laws came from Moses rather than God?

   I do find your reference to the commandments written in stone interesting, the very same commandments that Scripture calls the “ministry of death”. Why would you conclude that the ministry of death is what is written in our hearts?

   2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,

   I’m looking forward to Scriptural answers to each of these points.

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   1. The bible says that the New Covenant is Law of God written in STONE – the Ten Commandments only were written in STONE by the finger of God – are now written on our hearts. The law of Moses was written in a book by Moses- “the book of the covenant” or “the book of the law” – the law that “was added because of transgressions” – see Galatians 3:19. Now the law of Moses contained within it the ten commandments – but ONLY the ten commandments were written in STONE are now written in our hearts – the New Covenant. The “ministry of death” proves the point – the wages of sin is death – therefore the Ten Commandments remain to be kept. Sin remains the transgression of the law. The penalty of unrepented sins remains death. The ministry of righteousness – the ministry of Christ who confirmed the new covenant – exceeds the glory of the old covenant which passed away. Christ’s death transformed the law of sin and death into the law of liberty. “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.” – see 1 John 2:3-6.

   2. Brian, thanks for including some Scripture for your conclusions. It makes it much easier to discuss the Biblical content.

      Again, the Bible never says, as you claim, “The New Covenant is the Law of God written in STONE are now written on our hearts”. That is your speculation. Replacing the Word of God with your own words is a dangerous practice.

      You have added yet another assumption in concluding that the law that was added because of transgressions in Gal 3:19 refers only to part of the Law. Your view requires changing what the word “law” means from one verse to the next in both Romans and Galatians, as we demonstrated here. If sin is only the transgression of the Ten Commandments, as you argue above, then it is that transgression that calls for our death. Let’s examine the context of Gal 3 a little further and see what Scripture says:

      Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

      If we are cursed to suffer death for breaking only the Ten Commandments, as you have claimed, then the law discussed just a few verses prior is plainly the Ten Commandments. The Law from which we are freed is the Ten Commandments. On the contrary, if the law here means the same thing it does a few verses later, then you must also conclude that the law that demands our death is NOT the Ten Commandments.

      I believe Scripture is far less complicated. Word meanings don’t change every few verses, we can read it like a letter and understand just like we would a letter. God isn’t trying to trick people will complex codes.

      Your insistence the sin is only the transgression of the law is another example of how SDAism teaches one text answers (proof texting) rather than real Bible study. Sin is far more complex than that one verse if you consider all of the teaching on the subject.

      I Jn 5:17a All unrighteousness is sin,
      Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin
      James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

      None of the 10 commandments are discussed here, yet I think we would both agree that these people sinned:
      Matt 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

      You appear to use I John 3:4 as a means to define sin too narrowly. Unintentionally, this seems to downplay the Holiness of God. It reduces sin to a few little behavioral rules. And before long, people can muster up the effort to keep those rules and consider themselves righteous. When we transgress the law, we sin. But we sin even when we don’t technically break the law. That was Jesus’ point in Matt 5:21 and onwards. Pharisees thought that they were doing pretty well at not transgressing those written laws, but Jesus made it clear that they were still sinners. Sin doesn’t occur only our actions, but also in our words, and even our thoughts. It isn’t only what we did, but it is the good that we failed to do (see the parable above).

      You then add another statement that sounds elegant, but is also without Scriptural support, “Christ’s death transformed the law of sin and death into the law of liberty.”

      You have then ended with one of the most blatant, and common, mis-uses of a proof text found in SDAism. The answers to what are “His commandments” are found in the nearby verses everytime the phrase is used.

      John 13:34
      “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

      John 15:12
      “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

      1 John 3:23
      This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

      1 John 4:21
      And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

      2 John 1:5
      Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

      I believe that Scripture defines Scripture. We can trust the Word of God to explain itself. Here is another case where it does just that. 1 John 2-3-6 is NOT referring to the Ten Commandments.

3. God has “made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit.” Gal 3:6. “written not with ink (the law of moses written in a book by Moses – the old covenant) but by the Spirit of the living God, (God wrote the Ten Commandments with His finger) not on tablets of stone (as with the old covenant) but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.” (as with the new covenant). “But if the ministry of death, written AND engraved on stones, (the old covenant – the law of moses AND the ten commandments) was glorious … how will the ministry of the Spirit be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.” Gal 2:7-9. “For if what is passing away was glorious, (the old covenant – the law of moses – the law of sin and death – the law contained in ordinances nailed to the cross) what remains (the new covenant – the ten commandments – the law of liberty) is much more glorious.” Gal 2:11. See Gal 2:13-17.

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4. Brian, it is hard when your Scirptural references do not match your statements.
   Gal 3:6 reads-“just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?”

   Gal 2:7-9 reads – “7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.”

   Gal 2:11 reads- “But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.”

   I also find it interesting that you must insert your interpretation within each quote in order to make it say what you claim.

   I would understand the passage from 2 Cor 3 in a quite different way.
   The Law written on our hearts is:
   Not written in ink “written not with ink”
   Not written on stone “not on tablets of stone”

   Based on these contrasts in the passage, I would conclude that the New is not like the Old. This passage contrasts the New and Old, it does not teach anything about the Old being transferred to the New.

   You have distinguished written AND engraved on stones as being that which was written by Moses and that which was engraved on stones by God. However, the word “and” is not found in the Greek. That is why it is in italics in the NKJV from which you are quoting. The literal translation is “in writing engraved on stone” the Greek (transliterated) is “en (in) gramma (writing) entypoo (engraved)” There is no “AND”.
   That is why you find the following in very literal translation of Scripture:
   NASB “But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones,”
   YLT “and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones”

   If you are going to have your theology hang on a single word, you should verify that this word is actually in the original languages.

   It is very telling that your own definitions change from one time to the next. Here you say that the old covenant is both the handwritten commands and the Ten Commandments. But then when you describe the old covenant passing away, it is only the handwritten commands. Earlier you claim that the law of sin and death refers to the fact that sin is breaking the law and death is the penalty for sin to conclude that the law which is a ministry of death is the 10 Commandments, but later you conclude that the law of sin and death is NOT the 10 Commandments. This ever changing definition of law is so confusing that you don’t even consistently apply those definitions in your own theology. Law means law. Scripture is really simple.

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5. The bible says the devil sinneth from the beginning. Where there is no law there is no sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. What law?

   The bible also says the “law was added because of transgressions?” What law?

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   1. If you truly want to discuss the meanings of law, look to my earlier posts in Establishing the Law and the Righteous Requirements of the Law. And then you can respond to what I have taught, rather than to what you assume I must teach.

6. You say “where there is no law there is no sin.”
   Scripture says “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.”

   Sin existed, but was not counted before the law was given, this is rather different from your claim.

   I already addressed your claim about sin being a transgression of the law.

   Rather than asking people to provide speculative answers to ill-phrased questions, turn to the Bible alone for true answers. Scriptre, not speculation.

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7. Notice – you did not answer my two questions. The answers are in the bible – and I will await them.

   Sin is the transgression of the law. What law?

   The bible also says the “law was added because of transgressions.” What law?

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   1. Sin is more than the transgression of the law, as I pointed out previously.

      Have you explained your alterations of Scripture yet? How is it that sin existed when there was no law?

      Because you refuse to engage in dialogue that builds on the previous statements, and instead simply want to return to your same flawed questions, we are making little progress. Until you address the fact that sin existed without the law, you will not be able to understand why your questions are flawed from the outset.

8. You ask “How is it that sin existed when there was no law?” Answering my two questions – which you still have not done – will answer yours. How can the bible say –

   “Sin is the transgression of the law. The devil sinneth from the beginning.” What law did Satan break?

   How can the bible say –

   “the law was added BECAUSE of transgressions.” What law was added?

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   1. I have already provided you with ample Scripture indicating that “transgression of the law” is not the only definition of sin in the Bible. Another example, to job your memory, is that anything that is not of faith is sin (14:23). Your refusal to step beyond a proof-text mentality and look at all that Scripture teaches is interfering with your understanding. So the fact that the devil sinned from the beginning does not require that he transgressed a law from the beginning. This is one of the examples of why I have said that your questions are faulty. When wil you begin discussing the Scripture that I have provided to you in responses?

      Your posts reveal the very typical approach of SDA Bible study. Instead of being interested in all of what Scripture teaches on a subject, and instead of reading the entire passages, SDA Bible studies rely on a carefully crafted series of questions that appear to have obvious answers. If you answers these questions, rather than actually read the Bible, you will fall for the SDA deception. But that isn’t Bible study, it is manipulation. Notice how you have changed Scriptural passages in this discussion several times, yet never addressed your mis-quotes.

9. Notice – you still have not answered my two questions –

   “The devil sinneth from the beginning. Sin is the transgression of the law” (which Christ magnified).
   What law?

   Yet, the “law (that was given) was added BECAUSE of transgressions? What law?

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   1. Do you think that you can win converts and convince others of your ways by repeating questions that were already demonstrated as faulty questions?
      What law is broken in these two definitions of sin:
      1) Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin;
      2) James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

      Could Satan have failed to act in faith?
      Could Satan have know the right thing to do and not done the right thing?

      So Satan did not have to transgress any law in order to have sinned. Therefore your question about which law he broke isn’t even a reasonable question. There is no answer. Just like asking when you stopped beating your spouse. A falsely framed question can not be answered.

      This also invalidates your second question, which assumes that there must have been one law that existed when Satan sinned and another law added later. But because you began with the false premise that in order for Satan to have sinned, he must have broken a law, all of the conclusions (and the questions you base on these conclusions) are false.

      How could there have been a time when there was no law to sin against, as Romans 5:13 indicates “for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law”?

      If you wish to contend that the law here is the ceremonial law rather than the 10 commandments, perhaps you can explain why sin isn’t counted against people when there is no ceremonial law. And also why sin would be counted against us now, if the ceremonial law no longer applies after Christ.

10. The law which “was given” and “added because of transgressions” – called “the law of Moses” (Luke 2:22) ended at the cross (Ephesians 2:15). This law “contained in ordinances” (Eph 2:15) written by Moses in a book (2 Chr 35:12) placed in the side of the ark (Deut 31:26) added because of sin (Gal 3:19) contrary to us, against us (Col 2:14) judges no one (Col 2:14-16) is carnal (Heb 7:16) and made nothing perfect (Heb 7:19) is no longer in efffect as part of the old covenant – the part “written in ink” – ending at the cross.

    God’s law – the TEN COMMANDMENTS – called “the law of the Lord” (Isa 5:24) called the “royal law” (James 2:8) written by God on stone (Ex 31:18; 32:16) placed inside the ark (Ex 40:20) will stand forever (Luke 16:17) points out sin (Rom 7:7; 3:20) is not grievous (1 John 5:3) judges all people (James 2:10-12) is spiritual (Rom 7:14) and perfect (Ps 19:7) remains in effect for all mankind and kept by the “saints” and “Israel of the spirit” is now written on our hearts as the new covenant.

    Moses’ law was given (or “added” – Gal 3:16, 19) till Christ should come and die. Two separate laws are invovled: God’s law and Moses’ law.

    Understandinng this answers both our questions and reveals the fourth commandment – the only one you deny – remains one point in the whole law of God. This is why God can say “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him.” 1 John 2:3-4.

    “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the LAW OF GOD, neither indeed can be.” (Romans 8:7)

    What law? (Rommans 8:7) What commandments of God? (Rev 14:12; 12:17) (1 John 2:3-4)

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11. You did a nice job of dividing the law; however all of your division is based on your assumptions. There is no Biblical evidence for making the splits that you have assumed.

    But once again, you misquote Scripture. You claim that the Royal Law is the Ten Commandments in James 2, yet the verse tells us exactly what the Royal Law is, James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.” The Royal Law is loving your neighbor as yourself.

    It is also a shame that you didn’t include the verse preceeding Luke 16:17, “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.”

    The Law and the Prophet had a time, but that time was replaced. But to truly understand Luke 16:17, you must also look at the parallel statement in Matt 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

    The key phrase in this “until all is accomplished”. Now the Jews did not have distinction in the Law, they saw all that God commanded them to do as “The Law”. So Jesus told them that nothing, not the smallest item, could change in the Law until all was accomplished. We all agree that the Law has changed. It was able to change, because all was accomplished on the cross when Jesus said “it is finished.”

    The Law in Romans 7, that you mention as being called spiritual, and as pointing out sin, is the same law that we have been set free from (Rom 7:6). Unless you are going to argue that law in verse 7 means something different from law in verse 6.

    And again, you have ignored what John says the commandments of od are:
    John 13:34
    “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

    John 15:12
    “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

    1 John 3:23
    This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

    1 John 4:21
    And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

    2 John 1:5
    Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

    Scripture defines Scripture clearly.

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12. Notice – you failed to answer my two questions –

    The devil sinneth from the beginning. Sin is the transgression of the law. By the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20) Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3:4) Where there is no law there is no sin. Satan “in the beginning” sinned – transgressing God’s Law.

    What law?

    The bible also says the “law was added because of transgressions” (sin – breaking God’s Law).

    What law was added?

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13. What is the Law of God – commandments of God – Christians are to obey and through faith “establish”? (Romans 3:31)

    In loving your neighbor as yourself –

    Do we “honor our father and mother”?
    Do we commit murder?
    Do we commit adultery?
    Do we steal?
    Do we lie?
    Do we covet?

    In loving the Lord our God with all our hearts –

    Do we worship other gods before God?
    Do we worship idols?
    Do we take the name of the Lord in vain?
    Do we remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy?

    Or do we only acknowledge 9/10ths of God’s commandments? Whoever stumbles in ONE point, is guilty of breaking the whole Law of God. (James 2:10)

    “Because the carnal mind is emnity against God; for it is not subject to the LAW OF GOD; neither indeed can be.” (Romans 8:7)

    What law? (Romans 8:7) What commandments? (Rev 12:17; 14:12)
    (1 John 2:3-4)

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    1. It seems that your only arguments in favor of the Sabbath are to ask leading questions that you expect answered with speculation rather than Scripture.

       In loving God we obey His instruction refusing to allow anyone to judge us regarding the Sabbath, a day that was a shadow of Christ.
       Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

       We have stepped out of the yoke of slavery to the Law described in Gal 5:1 “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.”

       We know better than to return to the Law
       Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
       Gal 3:2-3 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

       We know now that the true Sabbath rest of Christ is found TODAY, not one day each week.
       Heb 4:3-10 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath,‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.” Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

       Like circumcision, the priesthood, sacrifices, and passover, the Sabbath was a shadow of Christ. Christ fulfilled the shadows. We live in the Light of the World, not in the shadows.

14. Notice – again you have not answered my two questions –

    The devil sinneth from the beginning. Where there is no law there is no sin. Sin is lawlessness. The law points out sin. Sin is the transgression of the law.

    What law?

    The bible says the “law was added BECAUSE of transgressions.”

    What law was added?

    Your contention that Satan sinned but did not transgress the law of God is contrary to scripture. Your contention that the “royal law” is only 9/10ths of the commandments is contrary to scripture. Your contention that the Sabbath day is a “shadow” of Christ is contrary to scripture. The Sabbath was established before sin entered the world and Christ “was manifested to take away our sins” (1 John 3:5).

    The reason you will not answer the above two questions is simply that it devastates your “ministry” as it clearly contradicts scripture and has been laid bare by the Gospel. The reason you lost this debate is that you are not arguing against myself – but against the author of the bible, Jesus Christ.

    Even now Christ says, “If you love me, keep my 9/10ths of my commandments.”

    I mean – Christ says, “If you love me keep my commandments. For love is the fufilling of the law.”
    “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.” (1 John 5:3)

    What commandments?

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    1. Let’s review some of your errors and wild assumptions:
       You contend that the meaning of the word law changes back and forth every few verses in Gal chapter 3 such that sometimes it means the Ten Commandments and other times in means the so-called Mosaic Laws. Ultimately, Scripture is incomprehensible and subject to every whim of man if the meanings of words constantly change.

       You repeatedly claim that the only definition of sin is transgressing the law. And you base your misleading questions on this error. What Scripture actually teaches:
       I Jn 5:17a All unrighteousness is sin,
       Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin
       James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

       You repeatedly claim that when John uses the word commandments in his writings he is referring to the 10 Commandments. What Scripture actually teaches:
       John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
       John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
       1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
       1 John 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
       2 John 1:5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

       You falsely claimed that Scripture teaches “You shall love the Lord your God … you shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang ALL the Law.” What Scripture actually says is “On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” By twisting Scripture you have changed the meaning.

       You concluded that because the NKJV says “But if the ministry of death, written AND engraved on stones” that there was a biblical distinction between the laws that were written and the laws that were engraved on stone. However, in looking to the NKJV you ignored the fact that the “and” was in italics, which means that the word is added to Scripture. The word “and” is not found in the Greek. The literal translation is “in writing engraved on stone” the Greek (transliterated) is “en (in) gramma (writing) entypoo (engraved)” There is no “AND”.
       That is why you find the following in very literal translation of Scripture:
       NASB “But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones,”
       YLT “and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones”
       If you are going to have your theology hang on a single word, you should verify that this word is actually in the original languages. You have been silent about this and every other error you have made.

       You claimed that “where there is no law there is no sin.”
       Scripture says something different “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.”
       You have directly contradicted Scripture.

       You claim that the Royal Law is the Ten Commandments in James 2, yet the verse tells us exactly what the Royal Law is, James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.” The Royal Law is loving your neighbor as yourself. Again, you have misled reader about what Scripture actually says.
       You have misquoted Scripture, changed what Scripture says, contradicted Scripture, and ignored the Scriptural responses provided to your questions.

       Have you stopped beating your wife?
       Your questions are based on false assumptions, as I have demonstrated from Scripture. They cannot be accurately answered in the manner that they are phrased.

    2. Christ says, “If you love me keep my commandments.”(John 14:15)
       “Love is the fufillment of the law.”(Rom 13:10)
       “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”(1 John 5:3)

       What commandments?

    3. I have already answered this multiple times:
       You repeatedly claim that when John uses the word commandments in his writings he is referring to the 10 Commandments. What Scripture actually teaches:
       John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
       John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
       1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
       1 John 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
       2 John 1:5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

    4. Correct – “For love is the fufillment of the law.”(Rom 13:10)

       “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”(1 John 5:3)

       What commandments?

    5. I’m sorry if you don’t like the Scriptural answer that His commandments are “that you love one another, just as I have loved you” and “that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.”

       Clearly you want a different answer than the one that Sripture provides.

    6. Yes – the commandment is to love – and how does the bible define love?

    7. I Cor 13:4-8a Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

       John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

       Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

       John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

       And the other half of the verse you cited “Love does no wrong to a neighbor”

       Love fulfills the law it does not say, as you seem to indicate, that love is following the law.

       I have answered many of your questions (perhaps not with the answer you wanted, but I answered directly nonetheless), you keep promising to answer mine, so far you have not kept your promises.

    8. Let’s examine your accusations and determine if they are true or if they are a false witness?

       You accused me stating: “Your contention that Satan sinned but did not transgress the law of God is contrary to scripture.”

       There is no Scripture which states that Satan transgressed the law of God. Scripture also clearly states that sin occurs even in the absence of law.
       Rom 5:13a sin indeed was in the world before the law was given

       Scripture also plainly states that sin is not just transgressing the law.
       I Jn 5:17a All unrighteousness is sin,
       Rom 14:23b and whatever is not from faith is sin
       James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
       CONCLUSION: FALSE WITNESS

       You accused me stating: “Your contention that the ‘royal law’ is only 9/10ths of the commandments is contrary to scripture.”

       I never stated that the Royal Law was 9/10ths or 7/10ths or any other fraction of the Ten Commandments. I stated that James 2:8 says that the Royal Law is loving your neighbor as yourself.

       James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

       There is no Scripture calling the Ten Commandments the Royal Law.
       CONCLUSION: FALSE WITNESS

       You accused me stating: “Your contention that the Sabbath day is a “shadow” of Christ is contrary to scripture.”

       Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

       Clearly the festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths are a shadow according to Scripture.
       CONCLUSION: FALSE WITNESS

       You accused me stating: “The reason you will not answer the above two questions is simply that it devastates your ‘ministry'”

       I plainly and patiently repeated the false assumptions underlying your questions, showing that your questions were no more reasonable than asking “have you stopped beating your wife”. I gave both my reasons and provided the details showing the basis for my reasons.
       CONCLUSION: FALSE WITNESS

       You accused me stating that my response: “clearly contradicts scripture and has been laid bare by the Gospel.”

       I have consistently posted Scriptural quotes in response to your claims. Quoted Scripture cannot be contradicting Scripture.
       CONCLUSION: FALSE WITNESS

    9. The bible defines love as –

       “Love is the fufillment of the law.”

       Christ says, “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

       “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

       What commandments?

    10. Asked and answered with Scripture. Please move on and answer some of the questions directed towards you.

    11. Not answered.

        If the commandment is to love –

        Is it sin to worship idols?

        Is it sin to take the Lord’s name in vain?

15. What commandments does the bible mean when –

    Christ says, “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

    What commandments?

    You have answered – “Love”

    The bible says, “Love is the fufillment of the law.”

    What law?

    “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

    What commandments?

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16. You have said above:
    What commandments does the bible mean when -Christ says, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” What commandments? You have answered – “Love”

    That is not entirely accurate. I have posted Scripture from the nearby verses allowing Scripture to define itself. The answer was not simply love, but rather to love others as Christ loved us.

    You continue: The bible says, “Love is the fufillment of the law.” What law?

    The Royal Law- James 2:8 also talks about fulfilling this law and it clearly defines what this law is:
    If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

    You mistakenly think that love is following the 10 Commandments. Let’s look at how Jesus defines this love for a neighbor when asked by legalists:
    Luke 10:29-35: But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’

    The priest and the levite:
    did not dishonor their parents
    did not murder the man
    did not commit adultery with or against the man
    did not steal from the man
    did not bear false witness about the man
    did not covet anything that this man had

    The priest and the levite kept the Ten Commandments, but did not love their neighbor. Keeping the Ten Commandments is not love.

    You ask, yet again: “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.” What commandments?

    And I give you the same answer from Scripture: 1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

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17. Christ magnified the law – but he did not abolish it. Keeping the law does not save us, but neither do good works. Is it sin to worship idols? Is it sin to steal? Is it sin to covet? Is it sin to take the Lord’s name in vain? Is it sin to not keep the Sabbath holy? The ten commandments define love.

    “For love is the fufillment of the law.”

    “For this IS the LOVE of God, that we KEEP His commandments?”

    But what commandments?

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18. Once again your fancy sounding statement simply isn’t found in the Bible. Scripture never says that Jesus came to magnify the Law. That is you adding to Scipture, as we have seen multiple times in this thread.

    What Scripture says is that Christ came to fulfill the Law.
    Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    Scripture also says that Christ’s death and resurrection resulted in a change in the law.
    Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

    I just pointed out to you an example Christ provided where the Ten Commandments did not define love. You refuse to respond to any Scripture provided to you.

    Jesus broke the Sabbath, so it must not be a sin.
    John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    You keep asking what commandments, and I will keep responding with Scripture:
    1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

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    1. “The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will MAGNIFY the law, and make it honourable.” (Isaiah 42:21)

       “Now this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

       “And he gave unto Moses, when He had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.”(Exodus 31:18)

       Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

       What commandments?

    2. Yes, during the time of the Old Covenant the Lord did magnify the Law, that still does not teach that Jesus came to magnify the Law.

       The verb tense translated “will magnify” in the NKJV is an imperfect tense which may be past, present or future tense. Other translations, such as the ESV, translate this as past tense.
       “The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness’ sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious” ESV
       “The LORD was pleased for His righteousness’ sake To make the law great and glorious.” NASB
       “The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness’ sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.” RSV
       “Jehovah hath delight for the sake of His righteousness, He magnifieth law, and maketh honourable.” YLT
       “The Lord was pleased, because of His righteousness to magnify His instruction and make it glorious.”HCSB
       “It was the Lord’s pleasure for His righteousness’ sake…to magnify instruction and revelation and glorify them” AMP

       It appears that you have an interpretation that is based on one and only one translation.

       You know what commandments. You have asked the same question more than a dozen times, and I have repeatedly provided you with the Scriptural answer to your question. Are you expecting Scripture to change?

19. I believe in Jesus Christ and I love my mankind –

    Is it a sin for me to worship idols?

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    1. Gal 5:18-23 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

       The NT has complete instructions for the New Covenant believers. Sabbath is never commanded in the New Covenant. But it does appear that if you have a burning desire to worship idols that this desire comes from the flesh, not the Spirit.

       BTW, I highly doubt that you (or any other person) can truthfully say that you have loved others as Christ loved. So if you are looking to call yourself a lawkeeper rather than a sinner by this definition, you will have failed. Which is why the freely credited righteousness of Christ is so important. We, who only have filthy rags, are called righteous because of Him.

20. Also Jesus did not sin by breaking the Sabbath – Jesus was accused of having “broken the sabbath”, and also saying “that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” Neither sinful for God to do.

    Jesus said,”Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.”(Matt 12:12)

    “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord of the sabbath.”(Mark 2:27-28)

    WE are not “Lord of the sabbath.”

    Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

    “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”(John 15:12)

    “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”(1 John 5:3)

    How do we love God? – Jesus says, “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

    How do we love one another? – “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.”(1 John 5:2)

    What commandments?

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    1. Once again you hacev twisted Scripture. Scripture does not say that the Jews accused Him of breaking the Sabbath, nor that the Jews were upset with Him because they thought He broke the Sabbath. You are changing Scripture to fit your teaching.

       John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

       Do we agree that He called God his own Father? Do we agree that Jesus not only claimed to be equal with God, but is? So why will you not accept that the statement immediately prior is also true “he was breaking the Sabbath.”

       I believe that Scripture is true and accurate. We can believe what it tells us.

       When Jesus pointed out that He was Lord of the Sabbath, it was not in response to Him breaking the Sabbath but rather that His disciples were breaking the Sabbath. Notice that Jesus never says that His disciples weren’t breaking the Law, He said that they were free to do so, just as David and his men were free to break God’s law regarding the showbread (Bread of the Presence).

       Luke 6:1-5 On a Sabbath, while he was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands. But some of the Pharisees said, “Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath?” And Jesus answered them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?” And he said to them, “The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

       So both Jesus and His disciples broke the Sabbath, and Jesus defended His disciples for breaking the Sabbath.

    2. Notice – you still did not answer my question –

       Jesus says, “If you love me, keep my commandments.”
       “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

       You say the commandments are to “love” – TRUE

       “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”(John 15:12)

       How do we love God? – Jesus says, “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

       How do we love one another? – “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.”(1John 5:2)

       What commandments?

    3. There are a few different ways that we can go about studying the Bible, but only one of these ways is relying on Scripture alone. We could answer questions based on our opinions and speculations rather than turning to the Word of God. We could take one verse from a the Bible and ignore the verses right around it talking about the same subject. Both of these will lead to teachings that are not Scriptural. The only way to rightly understand Scripture is to let Scripture define Scripture. You ask a question based on 1 John 5:2, the answer to your question is found in the book of first John. Two verses before we find:
       1 John 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
       and if we go back just a few verses further (22 verses earlier in fact):
       1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

       So Scripture has plainly defined in the immediate context of the verse that you cited what the word in question means. You can follow Scripture or you can follow the traditions of men. I’m choosing to follow Scripture.

       No matter how many times you ask the same question, Scripture doesn’t change.

21. We should consider ALL the bible instructs regarding love, not only the portion we want to agree with –

    The bible says “to love one another, as I haved loved you.”

    And that we know that we love one another when we “love God, and keep His commandments.”

    And we know that we love God, as He says, “If you love me, keep My commandments.”

    Love is all the things the bible tells us it is, and that God IS love –

    “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

    And, what are His commandments? (Hint – they are listed in the bible)

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22. I have never suggested that we not consider all of the Bible passages on what love is.

    You are correct in quoting that this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, but you ignore that “His commandments” are defined a few verses earlier.
    “THIS is His commandment” Is there anything unclear about that statement. John has just told us what His commandment is and then John tells us that we should keep those commandments.

    Here is a hint for you, if you want to know what John means, read all of what John says, not just a single verse in isolation.

    The writings of Moses contain commands given to Israel. The writings of John contain commands given to Christian Believers.

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23. “And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.”(1 John 3:23)

    How do we love one another?

    “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.”(1 John 5:2)

    We love one another by keeping God’s commandments.

    How do we love God?

    Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” “He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandmments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”(1 John 2:4)

    We love God, by keeping His commandments.

    How does God love?

    “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

    “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”(Rev 12:12)

    “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”(Isaiah 8:20)

    “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”(Rev 14:12)

    What commandments?

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    1. It is abundantly clear by this point that you are not posting here to engage in any honest form of dialogue.

       You have not addressed a single point that was raised in the blog post.

       You have not addressed any of the issues I have raised in subsequent responses to you.

       You have repeated the exact same question in 13 different posts. I have patiently given you a variety of Scripture in response to the question.

       The question has been answered, your continual reapeating of the same statements that have already been addressed and asking the same question that has already been answered is the clearest demonstration of your intent. You have demonstrated no interest in meaningful dialogue. You have shown no interest in discussing any passage from Scripture apart from repeating the few SDA prooftexts that you have learned.

24. Notice – you still have not answered my question –

    I do not want to broaden the discussion and become entangled in other debates as you keep dodging the inevitable clear meaning of the bible. The bible’s clear distinction between the Ten Commandment Law of God and the law of Moses reveals how “the devil sinneth from the beginning” as “sin is the transgression of the law” and the law that was “given” or “added BECAUSE of transgressions” are different laws.

    You cannot have a law that “points out sin” form the “beginning” and a law “added” because of sin
    existing as the same law. For example, the Israelites kept the Sabbath and collected manna six days and rested on the seventh before the law was “given” on mount Sinai. The Ten Commadment Law of God and the Sabbath existed from the beginning. The law of Moses was “added because of transgressions.”

    The commandment to love God and love one another is further explained in the bible.

    “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments.”

    “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

    Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep my commandments.”

    The bible reveals how we know that we love God and love one another – “THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS”.

    Not as you contend, that the commandment to love one another and to love God is to love one another and to love God is to love one another and to love God is to love – your confused definition falls short of the whole definition the bible provides –

    That we KNOW that we love God and love one another, when we “keep His commandments.”

    What commandments?

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    1. Once again you have made up your own Scripture. It isn’t any wonder that you don’t want to discuss anything, because those discussions are about your distortions, manipulations, and flat out alterations of Scripture.

       There is no Scriptural passage that says that was “a law that points out sin form the beginning”.

       There is no Scriptural passage that says Satan broke the Ten Commandments, or any other code of “Law”. Among those passages I have posted that you don’t want to discuss is the fact that sin existed without the law, that while it is a sin to break the law, it is also a sin to not act in faith and it is a sin to know the right thing to do and not do it. Finally all unrighteousness is sin. Your carefully crafted list of proof texts fall on their face because you ignore the rest of Scripture.

       Until you are willing to discuss the material that I post in response to you, there is no discussion. There is only you repeating the same claims and same questions that have already been de-bunked in earlier replies.

       Unless you are willing to discuss what has already been posted in my earlier replies to you, this is the end of my responses to you. At any point that you are willing to demonstrate a two-way discussion of the Bible, where you respond to the issues raised, I will be most happy to re-enter the conversation.

    2. “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”(1 John 3:4)

       “For where there is no law there is no transgression.”(Romans 4:15)

       “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”(Romans 3:31)

       He who sins is of the the devil, for THE DEVIL HAS SINNED FROM THE BEGINNING.”(1 John 3:8)

    3. Since you have responded to the content of a post, rather than simply reposting your claims, let’s examine what you have posted.

       It is true that where there is no law there is no transgression. It is only logical that one can not transgress a law that doesn’t exist. But Scripture does not say that the devil transgressed the law, it says that the devil sinned.

       If Romans 4:15 suggested that there is not sin without the law then it would make Paul contrdict what he says in the following chapter. But this is not what Rom 4:15 says or implies. So it agrees fully with Rom 5:13 which teaches that sin occurs even in the absence of law.
       Rom 5:13a sin indeed was in the world before the law was given

       Scripture also plainly states that while it is a sin to transgress the law, sin is not just transgressing the law. There are other ways to sin:

       I Jn 5:17a All unrighteousness is sin,
       Rom 14:23b and whatever is not from faith is sin

       James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

       Just because the devil sinned from the beginning, does not indicate that the devil transgressed the Ten Commandments.

       Furthermore, if you truly believe that Rom 4:15 is talking about the Ten Commandments, you have some serious explaining to do:

       The previous verse says-
       “For if it is the adherents of the law (Ten Commandments in your definition of the following verse) who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.”

       Your claim that there is a “law that ‘points out sin’ form (sic) the ‘beginning'” has not been demonstrated from the Scripture that you provided. Once again, we find that your claims are not Biblical (or are, at best, based on ignoring large parts of Scripture).

    4. Regardless of any conclusion reached regarding this issue – it simply does not nullify the Ten Commandments – which define love of God and for one another.

       Christ magnified the law, showing that the sin of murder is also hating your brother. There is no sin not against the Law of God – the Ten Commandments – the Law of the Lord is PERFECT ((Psalm 19:7)

       Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

       What commandments?

    5. Furthermore, your contention that the devil sinned without breaking the Ten Commandment law of God is contrary to scripture. There is simply no sin where there is no law. (Romans 4:15)

       Adam and Eve sinned breaking the First commandment – putting the word of the serpent above the word of God.

       The devil also sinned “from the beginning” breaking the First commandment – placing himself above God.

       The bible teaches that breaking one commandment breaks them all.

       You choose to acknowledge only 9/10ths of God’s law, effectively breaking them all.

       Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep my commandments.”

       What commandments?

25. “The coming of the LAWLESS one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”(2 Thessalonians 2:9-10)

    “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, AND TEACHES MEN SO, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”(Matt 5:10)

    “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man.”(Matt 7:24)

    Jesus says, “If you love Me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.”(John 14:15)

    Love without commandment-keeping is not love at all. (1 John 2:4)

    God says, “My covenant I will not break, nor alter the words that has gone out of My lips”(Psalm 89:34)

    Notice, the Ten Commandments came from His lips. Exodus 20:1 says, “And God spoke all these words, saying (the Ten Commandments follow in verses 2-17).”

    “This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”(1 John 5:3)

    What commandments?

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    1. I notice that you have need to change Scripture once again in order to prop up your false doctrines.

       You said:
       “Furthermore, your contention that the devil sinned without breaking the Ten Commandment law of God is contrary to scripture. There is simply no sin where there is no law. (Romans 4:15)”

       But that isn’t what Romans 4:15 says. Romans 4:15 says where there is no law there is no “transgression”. Transgression and sin are two different words. God inspired Scripture, so we can be sure that the word He wants in this passage is there already, you can not improve on His Word.

       You did not address Rom 4:14.
       You did not address Rom 5:13.
       You did not address I Jn 5:17.
       You did not address Rom 14:23.
       You did not address James 4:17.

       You claim that Adam and Eve broke the First Commandment:
       “Adam and Eve sinned breaking the First commandment – putting the word of the serpent above the word of God.”

       The truth is that the commandment that they broke is specifically spelled out be God-
       Gen 3:11b “Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

       God’s commandment to Adam and Eve was “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Gen 2:16-17)

       There is no need to make up fanciful explanation of how this action might have broken one of the Ten Commandments. There was a clear command from God, don’t do this or you will die. Eve was deceived, but Adam sinned knowingly. And it was through Adam’s sin that mankind was put into the cycle of sin.

       The rest of your post was simply filled with the broken record claims that have all been previously discussed (and subsequently ignored by you).

       I hope that your small forays into discussing the content of my replies might extend into some full fledged conversations. The proverbial ball is in your court. You can choose to have a discussion that builds on what has been posted and digs deeper allowing the true meaning of Scripture to be plainly revealed, I eagerly await your participation is such a conversation.

26. “Whosever committeth sin also trangresseth the law; for sin is the trangression of the law.” (1 John 3:4)

    Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

    “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

    “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments.”

    Breaking which of the following commandment is not sin?

    You shall have no other Gods before me.
    You shall not worship idols.
    You shall not take the name of God in vain.
    Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
    Honor your mother and father.
    You shall not murder.
    You shall not commit adultery.
    You shall not steal.
    You shall not lie.
    You shall not covet.

    Breaking which commandment is not sin?

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27. I agree with seventh-day (Saturday) sabbatarians, at least on a number of basic points. This may come as a shocking statement to those who know I believe the weekly Sabbath day was a shadow pointing to Christ, that Jesus fulfilled the shadow, and that the substance or reality is now found only in Him. So obviously I have some marked disagreement with those who believe observance of the Old Covenant shadow is still a requirement for New Covenant Christians. Having said that, there are at least nine points I have identified where I think seventh-day sabbatarians and I can agree. Oh sure, we would still have significant disagreement on various details related to these points, but at a bare minimum I think we could agree in principle upon the most basic thoughts expressed below. See if you agree:

    1. Obedience and holiness are not optional for the Christian, but are a normative expectation of the Christian life.

    2. Grace is never a license to sin.

    3. Teaching and following what God has commanded us is not legalism.

    4. Sunday is not the Sabbath and there is no biblical command to transfer the 4th command of the Decalogue to any other day.

    5. The Sabbath of the Decalogue is not merely a principle of keeping one day in seven, but rather specifies one very specific day, the seventh-day (Saturday).

    6. Sabbath-keeping on the seventh-day was not optional for Israel, but was commanded them and was a sign of obedience and holiness.

    7. If keeping the Sabbath day of the Decalogue is commanded to New Covenant Christians, then neither the day or the practice is optional and should not be considered legalism, but a normative part of the Christian life and a sign of obedience and holiness.

    8. At least some of the commandments given to Israel are not commanded to New Covenant Christians and should not be considered normative or signs of obedience (examples might include animal sacrifices, annual Sabbath festivals, and monthly new moon Sabbaths).

    9. Christians should biblicaly answer the question of whether or not New Covenant believers are commanded to keep a Sabbath day, then live according to God’s teaching to the Church on this matter.

    Number nine really gets to the heart of the matter. If New Covenant Christians are commanded to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, then we should certainly being doing so. Period. I agree with Sabbatarians on that. All too often though, our conversations and debates don’t really focus on this most crucial question. Rather we tend to get caught up going back and forth about points that we all already agree on. So we spend a lot of time talking about obedience when we all already agree that obedience is not optional. Or we spend a lot of time looking at texts commanding Israel to keep the Sabbath when we already agree on that point and also would all admit that not every commandment given to Israel is commanded to Christians.

    Arguing about things we agree on is really a waste of time and energy. We don’t spend nearly enough time looking at the specific instructions (plural) given by God to the Church regarding holy days and the New Covenant. This issue came up in the early Church and the Holy Spirit addressed it in God’s Word. We don’t have to guess what we as New Covenant Christians are taught about this, we merely need to read and accept the instruction we’re given. To be truly productive, that’s where our discussions should be centered and not on those things we already agree with.

    Look, if I am misunderstanding the instruction that God gave to the fledgling Church on this matter, then I want to know and I want to change my practice accordingly. I really mean it! unfortunately, I’ve found most of my friends and family are more comfortable going back over (and over) the first eight points listed rather than dealing with the specific instruction on this topic that was given to the New Covenant Church.

    I hope that someday we’ll be able to really biblically address the ninth point. We all agree that we need to know what the Bible has to say to New Covenant Christians on this matter, so why don’t we focus on the specific teaching given to the New Covenant Church on this matter? Until then, can we at least agree to agree on that with which we agree?

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    1. Excellent points Chris. The central question, as you have pointed out, is what is commanded in the New Covenant.

       I do think we need to be careful in discussing our “agreement” on point #1. The SDA viewpoints surrounding obedience and holiness are substantially different from that of Evangelical Christianity.

       We do not need to achieve some specific level of obedience and holiness in order to be judged “fit for heaven”. Our fitness for heaven has already been fully established by the blood of Christ. We aren’t the ones who need to be spotless, the Lamb was spotless.

       Furthermore, there is a sense in which we are already fully holy the moment that we are in Christ. In a paradox of Scripture, we are both holy and being made holy at the same time.

       There is no teaching in Christianity that we must prove our worthiness of God’s forgiveness, or risk having the sins we previously confessed placed back upon us. There is no teaching that we must live in fear that we have some unconfessed sin that would bar us from entering heaven.

       There is certainly no Biblical teaching that if we do our best, God will take care of the rest. There is no judgment based on the “trend line of our lives”. Nor is there a passage that assures us that God is looking at our “good” intentions rather than just our actions. Our obedience and the holiness we might achieve are utterly worthless (filthy rags) when figured into the equation of salvation.

       I think it is failing to witness the Gospel to suggest to SDAs that we agree with them on obedience and holiness.

    2. To Chris Lee –

       The bible says “all Israel shall be saved.” There exists “Israel of the spirit” and “Israel of the flesh”. All true christians are “Israel of the Spirit” in which we worship God and keep the Sabbath as a “perpetual covenant forever” with Israel.

       Also – please review my post regarding the “law of Moses” vs “The Law of God”. Sin is the transgression of the law, which has existed “from the beginning”. The law of Moses was “given” and “added BECAUSE of transgressions” against the Law of God. The “law contained in ordinances”, the law of Moses, was “nailed to the cross”.

       The old covenant was the law of Moses and the law written in STONE. The new covenant is the law written in STONE now written on our HEARTS. The Ten Commandment Law of God.

       Summarized as the commandment to love God and one another.

       “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

       “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments.”

       Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

28. Chris~

    Thank-you for you succinct response !

    ~mj~

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29. To Rick Barker –

    Please respond to my last reply regarding “breaking which commandment is not sin”?

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    1. As I pointed out to you a few days ago, a discussion is a two-way street. Many of the issues I have raised and questions that I have asked have gone unanswered. At any point you wish to engage a two-way conversation, you can start by addressing some of the posts made to you earlier. I am more than happy to engage in a two-way conversation and merely await your replies so that we can begin.

    2. Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

       Breaking which of the Ten Commandments is not sin?

    3. Brian,

       You have inserted the word “ten” where it does not exist. Jesus never said, “If you love me keep the Old Covenant Decalogue”. God gave the Israelites 613 commandments of which the Decalogue was representative. We all agree that not all of these 613 commandments directly apply to New Covenant Christians. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant Law and ushered in a New Covenant, giving us what the Bible calls “The Law of Christ” which has very lofty commandments indeed. So we need to look to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles to understand what the commandments of Jesus to New Covenant Christians are. We all agree that we should keep the commandments of Christ, so there is little point in restating this as if it is a point of disagreement. It is not. The issue is: What instructions was the early Church given about holy days and the Sabbath. The Bible addresses this directly so, fortunately, we don’t have to guess. It’s pretty clear that the Sabbath was a shadow fulfilled in Christ.

30. Jesus says, “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work, but the seventh-day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

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31. Please notice that Mr. Barker lost every point in this debate, simply because arguing against the bible is unwise and futile.

    This “ministry” cannot say breaking the fourth commandment is not sin, it simply ignores the bible teaching that breaking one commandment is breaking them all.

    Also ignoring the biblical definition of love. The bible defines loving God and loving one another as keeping the commandments of God.

    Furthermore; teaching others to break the Law of God is condemned in scripture.

    “The coming of the LAWLESS one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all UNRIGHTEOUS deception among those who PERISH, because they did not receive the LOVE of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the LIE, that they all may CONDEMNED who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.”(2 Thes. 2:9-12)

    “He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not KEEP His commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is not in him.”(1 John 2:4)

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    1. Brian, we aren’t the ones who get to decide who has won or lost the debate. Each reader examines the answers provided, and prayerfully studies the Scripture to reach that conclusion for themselves.

       You are correct that breaking any commandment that applies to you means that you are a sinner. The key question, as Chris pointed out, is what commandments are believers asked to follow. Adam was commanded not to eat from one tree in the garden, he broke that commandment. Noah was commanded to build a boat, and he obeyed. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son and he obeyed. We aren’t commanded to avoid eating from one tree, to build a boat, nor to sacrifice our child. If Christians are not commanded to keep the weekly Sabbath, as I believe that I have demonstrated, then we are not breaking any command in not keeping it.

       You have accused me of ignoring the Biblical definition of love which is a false accusation (doesn’t that break one of your Ten Commandments). I provided multiple passages from Scripture that define love. The sticking point in this discussion has been whether one can trust John and Jesus to provide the definition of what they mean when they say “commandments”. You conclude that the word commandments must mean the Ten Commandments, I conclude that Jesus specifically gives new commandments in the surrounding verses.

       You are correct that teaching others to disobey God’s Law is condemned. Where you have erred is concluding that Law=Ten Commandments. You have falsely accused us of being lawless. That is not true, we believe in obeying the Law of Christ outlined in the New Testament rather than obeying the Law of Moses, outlined in the first 5 books of the Bible.

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